ruh roh - AJo is my biggest loser...

o0mr_bill0o · #1 05-14-2005, 12:33 PM

Okay, so I've been doing pretty well lately, so I've been taking a look at my pokertracker stats to see what can be better. and in doing so I noticed that AJo was my worst hand (-.44 bb/hand over 134 hands). I can't recall any hands that I thought were problematic, so I'm just picking three hands completely randomly and posting them. I'll probably post three more later, and keep going till I have a good idea of what i'm doing wrong.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 6 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (5.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 5.25 BB

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 4 folds, Button calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, Button folds.

River: (7 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 3 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, BB calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

ThePimpulator · #2 05-14-2005, 12:54 PM

You can check the turn in hand 3.

MisterKing · #3 05-14-2005, 01:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You can check the turn in hand 3.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes... field is too large, bet will not fold them out and you are likely drawing to either 3 or 6 outs vs some kind of pair.

Hand 1 is fine, and I wonder if check-call is better on hand 2... I know its weak-tight but that river card is mucho bad news for hero's hand. Bet call seems fine, but for the sake of raising alternatives this one spot where you might have had options. I also agree with TT that raising PF here is awful. My cutoff is AQo, but I may be playing much looser games than TT, I dunno. AJ is not a good hand to raise here.

Luv2DriveTT · #4 05-14-2005, 03:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My cutoff is AQo, but I may be playing much looser games than TT, I dunno. AJ is not a good hand to raise here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. I slapped in a "s" after the AQ by accident. I post fast and furious, little details get missed at times. Thanks for pointing that out.

TT

Luv2DriveTT · #5 05-14-2005, 01:11 PM

Hand #1 - Generally I don't play AJo until the middle positions. Its not the most robust of hands to play pre-flop that early.

Hand #2 - Pre-flop I won't raise anything smaller than AQs against a field. If it was just the button limping in then I wouldn't hesitate to raise AJo here, but in this scenario you should limp. Played ok otherwise, you got owned I assume?

Hand #3 - Again... bad pre-flop raise. The turn is 50/50 check or bet for me, both actions work fine. Otherwise average hand.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

brazilio · #6 05-14-2005, 01:22 PM

Making blanket statements like that in #2 and #3 is a mistake, I think. I judge whether I have an equity raise and base it a lot on their VP$IP, their willingness to see extra streets after preflop aggression when I blank and they've got a junk pair, etc. I mean AJo is no huge moneymaker for me either, but it's no Q9o.

Entity · #7 05-14-2005, 01:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #1 - Generally I don't play AJo until the middle positions. Its not the most robust of hands to play pre-flop that early.

Hand #2 - Pre-flop I won't raise anything smaller than AQs against a field. If it was just the button limping in then I wouldn't hesitate to raise AJo here, but in this scenario you should limp. Played ok otherwise, you got owned I assume?

Hand #3 - Again... bad pre-flop raise. The turn is 50/50 check or bet for me, both actions work fine. Otherwise average hand.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

TT,

When did you turn into such a preflop nit (no offense meant, fwiw)? Preflop is fine 8-handed at $2/4 in #1 and #3. I wouldn't raise #2 all the time, but it's a raise I'll still make occasionally. None of these raises are bad, though.

Have you been playing in games recently where the players are generally tighter? I'm actually stunned that you'd fold AJo UTG 8-handed (I'm raising it ten-handed, though I don't think limping it is terrible -- and I'm certainly not folding it).

Rob

Luv2DriveTT · #8 05-14-2005, 02:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]

TT,

When did you turn into such a preflop nit (no offense meant, fwiw)? Preflop is fine 8-handed at $2/4 in #1 and #3. I wouldn't raise #2 all the time, but it's a raise I'll still make occasionally. None of these raises are bad, though.

Have you been playing in games recently where the players are generally tighter? I'm actually stunned that you'd fold AJo UTG 8-handed (I'm raising it ten-handed, though I don't think limping it is terrible -- and I'm certainly not folding it).

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew I'd get a response like that! I'm glad it was from you Rob!

The truth is I limp on some tables with AJo, occasionally I'll raise if I am playing against a table with good thinking players, and occasionally I'll fold (not often however... its a rare occasion, depends on the table but I haven't felt I needed to do this in a long time). SSHE doesn't recommend this hand be played at all from early positions when the players average 3-5 to the flop. HPAF (which I am re-reading again and again this month, many amazing gems in there I have overlooked outside of this forum) classifies AJo as a group 4 hand, which is playable in a loose table, but not worth a raise.

From HPFAP: "as the game gets more aggressive, you should
discard some of the weaker Group 4 hands such as AJ and KTs.
These can be difficult hands to play out of position, especially if you find yourself isolated by an aggressive player."

As for #2... think to yourself, what is the point of the raise? Is it a raise for value? Is it a raise to dominate position? To clean up the field? I agree occasionally (again depending on the players, the texture of the table, and so on) its a reasonable raise, but the majority of the time its un-required.

Your point about the 8 handed table was valid I should add... I didn't notice that when providing my original analysis. But against a 10 handed table I think my advise stands strong.

I'm not such a nit after all eh? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Entity · #9 05-14-2005, 03:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
as the game gets more aggressive, you should
discard some of the weaker Group 4 hands such as AJ and KTs.
These can be difficult hands to play out of position, especially if you find yourself isolated by an aggressive player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey TT,

I completely agree in a game where the players are solid or otherwise aggressive. But in Party's $2/4, a largely loose-passive fest, raising this is standard -- because worse hands will call the vast majority of the time (value), and because there aren't enough aggressive players to worry about the hand becoming particularly tricky to play (as you should be able to easily see from the postflop play on these hands).

I'm raising this UTG at Party's $2/4 and $3/6 with great success so far (obviously, .5/1 and $1/2 are included as well). I haven't played their $5/10 full ring or above, so I really can't comment much on whether the raise is a good idea there -- but I do know that peter_rus has done extensive analysis with ATo (a muck for me) and raising it UTG in the Party $15/30, which is a very aggressive game, and it's a long-term winner for him.

HEPFAP is a great book for general principles, but it's a bit outdated as far as how games "play" anymore; of course, the most important thing that any of us should remember is to adjust our play according to the game we're playing -- and if you're advising mucking AJo UTG at Party's $2/4 tables, you certainly aren't adhering to that tenet of good poker. It is mentioned by Ed Miller in SSH that whether you raise or call AJo or KQo in EP is of relatively little importance; the subject has been debated here many times, and the only important thing is that, when you are practicing good game selection, you don't fold them.

As far as the raise goes in #2, it's simply value extraction. If raising the hand preflop means you're leading any flop and any turn, however, you should reconsider whether or not you should be raising in the first place. Obviously an A77 flop is a fine one to lead, however, and the only real question in this hand is whether it's better to call or fold to the river raise. The raise from the SB is probably marginally +EV if you play well postflop, and given the fact that the opponents are two typical Party $2/4 limpers, a raise here is for value.

Rob

MisterKing · #10 05-14-2005, 06:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
as the game gets more aggressive, you should
discard some of the weaker Group 4 hands such as AJ and KTs.
These can be difficult hands to play out of position, especially if you find yourself isolated by an aggressive player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey TT,

I completely agree in a game where the players are solid or otherwise aggressive. But in Party's $2/4, a largely loose-passive fest, raising this is standard -- because worse hands will call the vast majority of the time (value), and because there aren't enough aggressive players to worry about the hand becoming particularly tricky to play (as you should be able to easily see from the postflop play on these hands).

I'm raising this UTG at Party's $2/4 and $3/6 with great success so far (obviously, .5/1 and $1/2 are included as well). I haven't played their $5/10 full ring or above, so I really can't comment much on whether the raise is a good idea there -- but I do know that peter_rus has done extensive analysis with ATo (a muck for me) and raising it UTG in the Party $15/30, which is a very aggressive game, and it's a long-term winner for him.

HEPFAP is a great book for general principles, but it's a bit outdated as far as how games "play" anymore; of course, the most important thing that any of us should remember is to adjust our play according to the game we're playing -- and if you're advising mucking AJo UTG at Party's $2/4 tables, you certainly aren't adhering to that tenet of good poker. It is mentioned by Ed Miller in SSH that whether you raise or call AJo or KQo in EP is of relatively little importance; the subject has been debated here many times, and the only important thing is that, when you are practicing good game selection, you don't fold them.

As far as the raise goes in #2, it's simply value extraction. If raising the hand preflop means you're leading any flop and any turn, however, you should reconsider whether or not you should be raising in the first place. Obviously an A77 flop is a fine one to lead, however, and the only real question in this hand is whether it's better to call or fold to the river raise. The raise from the SB is probably marginally +EV if you play well postflop, and given the fact that the opponents are two typical Party $2/4 limpers, a raise here is for value.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent post, Entity -- we need more posts like this where we get the background behind the recommendation.

The AJo/KQo UTG thing has been posted to death and really its a style choice as you say. I never open-fold either in 2/4 or 3/6 games on Party, but I do sometimes call with trickier guys in the game on my immediate left. I do think the UTG situation is fundamentally different than the situation original poster had in hand #2 where he poppsed AJo for a raise in the SB after numerous limpers.

When contemplating that particular move (raising AJo for value in the SB vs numerous limpers), I never really worry about limp/re-raises because they happen so infrequently, but I do worry about playing out of position against a large field WHEN two or more seriously loose/passive guys are on my immediate left. Reason being they will (inadvertantly) stop me from doing anything to protect my hand a lot of the time if I hit a jack. They'll just happily call along with whatever, and in doing so sweeten the pot so much that anyone in the hand from LP with reasonable draws always gets the odds to continue. And as you've said, the 2/4 tables are very passive, so you may not get the chance to put in a check-raise as often as you'd like to protect against this situation.

Opponents are going to play the same postflop in a raised or unraised pot in most of these 2/4 games, so my preference a lot of the time is to just call and keep the pot small. Their post-flop mistakes will be magnified, and you *might* get a fighting chance to price draws out by the turn. So, that's just a few things I think of in response to your post -- not saying you're wrong at all, but that there are always a few other things to ponder.