A confusing hand for me, wondering bout agression and wa/wb

glean · #1 05-09-2005, 08:08 PM

Is this hand played horribly?

I only have about 30 hands at this table so no real reads at all. Boath players seem to be fairly loose, but with only a hand or two shown from each of them who knows. The table was sitting at a whoping 45% seeing the flop when I joined 30ish hands ago.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 :#A500AF(villan1)/ calls, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB :#A500AF(vilan2)/ calls, MP1 calls, MP2 :#A500AF(villan1)/ 3-bets, Hero calls, BB :#A500AF(vilan2)/ caps, MP1 folds, MP2 :#A500AF(villan1)/ calls, Hero calls.

PF after I raise and get not one, but two limp/reraises I have no idea what is going on.

Flop: (15.40 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
vilan2 checks, villan1 checks, Hero bets, vilan2 calls, villan1 calls.

Flop gives me TPTK and a possible strait draw and plenty of over card/pair worries. I figure I bet and if reraised I'm done.

Turn: (9.20 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
vilan2 checks, villan1 checks, Hero bets, vilan2 calls, villan1 calls.

The two cc's and another strt card and again, no idea where I am. Figure if I check someone is bound to bet this board on the next street as a bluff and I still have a resonable chance mhig. I bet again, with the same plan as on the flop, a ckraise will fold me. Again, two cold calls. No idea where I stand still.

River: (12.20 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
vilan2 checks, villan1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 12.20 BB

After I'm checked to on the river with a blank falling I am guessing that I am still ahead, figureing that a bet wins the pot for me right there, but don't want to halve to call a rraise or fold to a bluff. So I check it thru.

Is this a way ahead way behind situation, or did I just make a total mess of this hand?

jrz1972 · #2 05-09-2005, 08:11 PM

I'd bet the river. Both of your opponents appear to be mouth-breathers.

itsmesteve · #3 05-09-2005, 08:16 PM

limp reraises do not necessarily equate to monster. tptk against no aggression is a hand i'd certainly bet on the river.

cold_cash · #4 05-09-2005, 08:19 PM

Pre-flop, meh. Fold, raise, limp, whatever.

Flop and turn are okay.

A river bet is probably good. I think you'll get called by Ace high, 9x, etc.

I just wanted to chime in to say that you're probably neither way nor way behind in this spot.

Think about way ahead/way behind when you think: A) you could be dominated or you're now reverse dominating someone, or B) you have a pocket pair but believe a bigger pocket pair is out. After the flop/turn action it's unlikely a bigger pair is out there, but overcards probably are.

Also, don't fall in love with this concept, especially in multi-way pots.

JohnEPark · #5 05-09-2005, 08:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but don't want to halve to call a rraise or fold to a bluff. So I check it thru.

[/ QUOTE ]

Board newbie but I'm just gonna start posting as if I know what I'm talking about. I think you must bet the river. If you get raised you have to call, folding to a raise is IMO not a valid option on this river.

jrbick · #6 05-09-2005, 08:31 PM

PF -- SSHE reccomends simply to play ATo. I tend to fold it against any limper at micro-levels. You'd really only want to raise ATs against limpers. If you flop a T, awesome TPTK but if you get it on the Flop you are susceptible to being drawn out. Catch an A and it's OK w/ TPGK (good, not great).

For all other streets I'd play them the same except I'm betting the river. The only hands that make a straight are 67, J6, QJ, and any 7. At this level I'm not sure if these players are even capable of check-raising, but I don't play Stars and maybe they are capable of check-raising. I've bet this river at 1/2 and one time not even the FULL HOUSE raised it (this isn't a great premise, so ignore it). You should think more along the lines that bad players are going to call you down w/ ANY piece of the board. Bet the river.

@bsolute_luck · #7 05-09-2005, 08:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PF -- SSHE reccomends simply to play ATo. I tend to fold it against any limper at micro-levels. You'd really only want to raise ATs against limpers. If you flop a T, awesome TPTK but if you get it on the Flop you are susceptible to being drawn out. Catch an A and it's OK w/ TPGK (good, not great).

For all other streets I'd play them the same except I'm betting the river. The only hands that make a straight are 67, J6, QJ, and any 7. At this level I'm not sure if these players are even capable of check-raising, but I don't play Stars and maybe they are capable of check-raising. I've bet this river at 1/2 and one time not even the FULL HOUSE raised it (this isn't a great premise, so ignore it). You should think more along the lines that bad players are going to call you down w/ ANY piece of the board. Bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

bold section: did you miss type this? or did you mean to put limp? i'm not sure what your saying.

blue section: you gotta get this out of your head. yes, it does matter who's limping, but i'll raise this against 2 limpers in MP3 position against only 2 limpers from MP- i might be more concerned with UTG limpers. part of it IMHO matters who is behind you: can you buy the button and fold the blinds?

jrbick · #8 05-10-2005, 12:08 AM

1.) SSHE literally says "play" (pg. 80; 82)meaning limp, right?
2.) To be more specific, I just fold ATo flat out in EP, open-raise in MP, fold in any position against limpers and/or raisers unless it is the unlikely (for micro-limits) scenario that I have the CO limping in front while I'm on the BTN or something wierd like that. I can see your argument being in MP3 w/ 2 limpers in front, but ONLY if you are certain you can fold CO, BTN, SB, and BB. So I think the reason being why my coach has reccomended playing ATo this way is because you are not clearing the rest of the field and trapping MP1 and MP2 all that often (if at all) in the Micro levels.

This is simply what I have been taught, so I am open to other suggestions if you'd like to present more reasoning behind playing ATo in the way that you have suggested.

JR

jrbick · #9 05-10-2005, 12:24 AM

Rather than edit the previous post I'll just leave that out there so I can learn from you @bsolute. My coach just updated me on starting hands in MP ;o) His coach had him playing that way until he got better at Post-flop and he has been doing the same with me but has forgotten to update me on PF play w/ marginal/speculative hands recently ;o)

Sorry to confuse this post and forgive me if it's been hijacked.

glean · #10 05-10-2005, 08:12 PM

Thank you all for the insite. I have just moved up in limits so I seem to be playing alittle weaker due to the $ involved. I havn't been playing for too long and still feel alittle lost on plenty of hands.

All the study and txt book stuff seems to fly out the door when I play vs weak loose players because I don't feel confident in knowing what they hold. If there are three or fore at a table it tends to freak me out. When they just call with either a fh or nothing I tend to chicken out at this lvl, which is 5x bigger than my last. I know that thies are the guys I want at the table, and felt prity good about it at the lower lvl, but right now being down $20 instead of $2 is kind of intimidating to me.

And to go on with the hijack I was realy wondering who you have as a coach jbrick? I have realy been considering trying to hire one, tho it would mean a big chunk out of my br. How do you like it, and is it in person or by history?

Thanks again for the valuable input everyone.