Ciaffone and Brier

[FoodForThought]

What is your take on "Middle Limit Holdem Poker" by Bob Ciaffone and Jim Brier? I'm wrestling with the advice they give.

[stigmata]

There have been several good discussions of this book in the Books/Publications forum. Search there in subject only, newer than 1 year for +Middle +Limit -"Re:".

The general consensus (which I agree with) is that the allegations of weak-tight are slightly unfair. In the games that these hands were taken from (tough, but perhaps straightfoward) the advice is probably correct. What with all the donkish and tricky behaviour in current internet games, then adaptations are needed. Also, if you keep making some of these "big laydowns", people will start playing into you. If these considerations are taken into account, I think it is excellent material.

SSH taught me how to raise, MLH taught me how to fold!

[FoodForThought]

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SSH taught me how to raise, MLH taught me how to fold!

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LOL...yeah, I couldn't help but notice all the 'fold' recommendations. Simply raise them on the turn and you win.

Thanks for responding.

[bobbyi]

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Simply raise them on the turn and you win.

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Well, there really were a lot of games where no one ever raised the turn unless they had a very strong hand (almost always better than one pair). The advice in that book is exploitable by someone who raises the turn a lot, but they were playing in games where people didn't really do that. The book wasn't trying to give game theoretically sound advice. It was trying to give advice that would actually work in the games they played. Remember too that these guys aren't stupid. Even though they say that you should fold the turn in a lot of spots, this is assuming their regular opponents. If they see that someone raises light on the turn, they will catch on and will stop folding so much.

[SA125]

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LOL...yeah, I couldn't help but notice all the 'fold' recommendations. Simply raise them on the turn and you win.

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I think Brier does a good job reviewing hands in Cardplayer. Someone posted a bogus thread about Ciaffone writing a book making him look like a fool and I think it's funny how a guy with his experience is afforded so little respect. Maybe I'm wrong, but somehow I don't see him being that easy to run over.

[SinCityGuy]

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The general consensus (which I agree with) is that the allegations of weak-tight are slightly unfair. In the games that these hands were taken from (tough, but perhaps straightfoward) the advice is probably correct.

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The book was written four years ago. Since then, there has been an overall shift upward in average aggression (not just in internet games). The modern games have many players who are more aggressive with marginal hands than the games of four years ago.

The book is probably still a good read for anyone who wants to play a weekday afternoon Las Vegas middle limit game. In most other games around the country, you will get run over in short order.

[helpmeout]

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The book is probably still a good read for anyone who wants to play a weekday afternoon Las Vegas middle limit game. In most other games around the country, you will get run over in short order.

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If people are as stupid as you then yes.

I assume most people who have a brain and actually use it will learn a great deal from this book.

When you read a book you are suppose to think about the things the author/s say.

If you read a book to copy what an author says in every situation you shouldnt be playing poker.

[Jeff W]

I agree with helpmeout. MLH improved my game more than any other poker book except TOP.

[NLSoldier]

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I agree with helpmeout. MLH improved my game more than any other poker book except TOP.

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Wow, I guess I am going to have to go steal Surfdoc's copy once he finishes it.

[onegymrat]

Hi Food,

Middle Limit Holdem is still my favorite book of all (with respect to John Feeney [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]) mainly because it establishes a great foundation of what middle limit thinking is about. Many players on this forum have chastised this book as too weak-tight for today's play. This may be correct in some respect, but remember that this book was written for live play (10/20 to 40/80) prior to the Party Poker explosion. The opponents in which they dueled were not as nutty as the current players that we face.

That being said, most players jump right to the criticism of sample hands, and never referred to the brilliant introductions to the chapters, which gives you much thought about the psychology of middle limits. This book is great as a complement to other good books out there. The chapters regarding drawing hands and avoiding trouble are among my favorites.

Don't knock the book until you've read it thoroughly. The two pros must have been doing something right to get to their level.
Simply raise them on the turn and you win.

Oh, if only it were that simple every time! Good luck.