A hand worth a discussion

FreakDaddy · #1 05-05-2005, 03:51 AM

Villian(CO) is LAG bordering on maniac. Stats after 50 hands : VP$IP 68 / PFR 35% / PFA 6.8

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter

UTG+1 ($24.75)
MP1 ($13.9)
MP2 ($10)
MP3 ($24.75)
CO ($56.75)
Button ($36.53)
Hero ($34.5)
BB ($31.7)
UTG ($19.75)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.1.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, MP1 raises to $1.1, 2 folds, CO calls $1.10, 1 fold, Hero (poster) calls $1, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.85.

I make a loose flop call OOP hoping to isolate CO after flop.

Flop: ($4.65) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets $2, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, CO raises to $10, Hero calls $8.

I lead out seeing where the table is at. I make another loose flop call. CO had been man handling the table and overbetting the by extreme amounts several times. Also making obnoxious raises pre-flop 20x-30x BB.

Turn: ($24.65) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero calls $23.40 (All-In), CO calls $23.40.

I push here. I figure I'm either already ahead, but if not I have a LOT of outs. All my heart outs I believe are clean as well, so I'm not too woried. I give villian about a 55/45 call/fold ratio here. That combined with my outs and the slim possibility I'm ahead has me push.

River: ($71.45) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $71.45

Comments on all streets appreciated.

phil_ivey_fan · #2 05-05-2005, 04:50 AM

Did you put villain on a hand, or were you just going to call this one down no matter what? The only thing I like about his hand is your push on the turn. You should have potted the flop or check raised it. Your weak bet is just bloating the pot, one inwhich you are OOP and only have middle pair. You wanna take it down there. The only thing really going for you is that CO is portraying the image of a bully and your hand *might* be good. What did you think about his flop raise? Its up to you to make a read (based on past table action -- have you been paying attention?) Without reads, I fold. Simply for the reason that there will be a better time to tango w/ CO. And plus your hand isn't that strong.

its been a while since I've been on the 25NL tables, but I wouldn't be shocked if he showed you a flush.

FreakDaddy · #3 05-05-2005, 04:40 PM

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Did you put villain on a hand, or were you just going to call this one down no matter what? The only thing I like about his hand is your push on the turn. You should have potted the flop or check raised it. Your weak bet is just bloating the pot, one inwhich you are OOP and only have middle pair. You wanna take it down there. The only thing really going for you is that CO is portraying the image of a bully and your hand *might* be good. What did you think about his flop raise? Its up to you to make a read (based on past table action -- have you been paying attention?) Without reads, I fold. Simply for the reason that there will be a better time to tango w/ CO. And plus your hand isn't that strong.

its been a while since I've been on the 25NL tables, but I wouldn't be shocked if he showed you a flush.

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My initial read was Jx - which could be any kind of kicker based on the hands I was seeing villian play. My initial flop bet was only to see where people were as there were other people to act and my hand wasn't that great. When I'm raised on the flop I change my read to Kx, so I know I'm behind to something. The turn push is my biggest question. Considering that I'm likely behind against a laggy opponent and I'm only 50/50 happy with it, how good is this play really? Villian showed Js, 5s and I took down the pot, and he made several comments about how he liked the turn push. Go figure.

TrailofTears · #4 05-05-2005, 06:44 PM

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My initial read was Jx - which could be any kind of kicker based on the hands I was seeing villian play. My initial flop bet was only to see where people were as there were other people to act and my hand wasn't that great.

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Initial read when...? Are you reading his PF call as Jx? If so, you could control the poker world.

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When I'm raised on the flop I change my read to Kx, so I know I'm behind to something.

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Okay, and you called his massive raise because...you knew you were going to hit runner runner here? Again, total domination of the game with this knowledge.

Please explain how any of this makes sense, and how this isn't just a horribly played hand that worked out in the end with a lot of luck.

-T

FreakDaddy · #5 05-05-2005, 07:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
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My initial read was Jx - which could be any kind of kicker based on the hands I was seeing villian play. My initial flop bet was only to see where people were as there were other people to act and my hand wasn't that great.

[/ QUOTE ]

Initial read when...? Are you reading his PF call as Jx? If so, you could control the poker world.

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Sure. Good question. This hand is purely based on my reads of villian. When I say I placed him on Jx, this of course is a 'loose read'. Like I said he'd been over betting second pairs quite often. I read the flop raise as another move to force people off the hand. It's not really that big of a stretch in this situation. Against any other opponents I'd drop this hand.
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When I'm raised on the flop I change my read to Kx, so I know I'm behind to something.

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Okay, and you called his massive raise because...you knew you were going to hit runner runner here? Again, total domination of the game with this knowledge.

Please explain how any of this makes sense, and how this isn't just a horribly played hand that worked out in the end with a lot of luck.

-T

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I need to clarify that I thought it was 50/50 that villian had Kx. I still have a slight possibility that I'm ahead. My thinking is that if I called the bet and pushed on the turn, that I had a decent shot of getting villian to drop the hand OR catch a good turn card that gave me a lot of possibilities, which is what happened. Again, against most opponents I wouldn't play the hand this way. I'd fold the flop raise or even pre-flop.

I understand that most people on this forum have problems with a hyper-aggresive style of play. I know it's easier to sit back with a 15% VP$IP and play ABC poker. I'd rather develop my reads at this level and experiment while the poker is cheap.

TrailofTears · #6 05-05-2005, 09:36 PM

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I understand that most people on this forum have problems with a hyper-aggresive style of play. I know it's easier to sit back with a 15% VP$IP and play ABC poker. I'd rather develop my reads at this level and experiment while the poker is cheap.

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I couldn't get my VPIP under 25 if my life depended on it, nor would I want to. But there is a huge difference between laggy play and smart-laggy play, and this particular hand falls in the former category, IMO. You force your opponent to respect your play, nor can you make you hand better than it is. I am not judging you as a player, but I am judging the hand you posted here, and it is poorly played IMO. Take that for what it is.

As for this hand, what did villain have and how was your read?

-T

FreakDaddy · #7 05-05-2005, 05:13 PM

Bump. This hand isn't really that interesting? No one has comments on the push? Oh well. Chip spewing or good read, such a fine line.

swolfe · #8 05-05-2005, 05:48 PM

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Bump. This hand isn't really that interesting? No one has comments on the push? Oh well.

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it's really pretty ugly and not at all how i would have played it. it's so different there's not much i can say about it.

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Chip spewing or good read, such a fine line.

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true.

FreakDaddy · #9 05-05-2005, 06:58 PM

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Bump. This hand isn't really that interesting? No one has comments on the push? Oh well.

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it's really pretty ugly and not at all how i would have played it. it's so different there's not much i can say about it.

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Ok, let me help. I hate the pre-flop call, I would have raised and here's why... or that turn push is horrible, this this and that. It's called discussion. You may learn something.

swolfe · #10 05-05-2005, 07:42 PM

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Ok, let me help. I hate the pre-flop call, I would have raised and here's why... or that turn push is horrible, this this and that. It's called discussion. You may learn something.

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okay

- i'd fold preflop
- i wouldn't bet out on the flop with 2nd pair and the preflop action
- i certainly wouldn't call the raise, maniac or not
- i wouldn't have pushed with 3rd pair and a gutshot

nice hand

EDIT: this is the kind of move you make on a tight player, not a maniac. you're supposed to use your opponent's weakness against him. if they call too much, then value bet everything; if they bet too much, let them take the lead and hang themselves.