routine river/overplayed river?

detruncate · #1 05-01-2005, 02:30 PM

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter

I know... 6-max is HUSH... but I thought the river play might be interesting to at least some of you.

Played a lot of (at times) terrifically bad 1/2 6 last week in an effort to close the gap to my challenge competitor (~17,300 hands in 6 days -- not mind-blowing by any means, but it's a new record for me by quite a bit). 4-tabling in a semi-stupor by this point, but reads are:

UTG has been loose/passive for the most part, but seems capable of folding a small piece in the face of aggression.

SB is loose/passive pf, but likes to take shots -- he'll bet any piece when checked to, but generally doesn't mix it up. I haven't been at the table very long, but SB has already taken down a couple pots on the turn/river by betting when checked to, and it seems to be a big part of his game -- he's had at least a pair every time he's subsequently shown down.

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks.

SB may or may not bet a pair here. He probably leads with a J. He might bet a T. I don't think he bets a 2. UTG could have anything.

Turn: (1.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks.

SB will almost certainly bet the turn with any pair (except maybe 2s) after the flop checks through. UTG often still won't bet a middling or bottom pairs -- his aggression numbers are miniscule.

I'm playing pretty weak/tight by this point -- not only am I just looking to hit my hand total for the day, I'm still coming out of a 220+ BB slide that didn't do anything good for my game or my psyche. Long story short, I'm pretty sure a turn bet didn't occur to me. Should it have?

River: (1.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises...

Ok... here's where it gets interesting(?). Remember that the decision was made in the context of what I know about my opponents. However, I'm not sure I properly took pot size into account. I'll leave further explanation of my thought process for later so as not to taint things.

Did I make the right decision, or is this overplaying at its finest?

Thanks in advance.

detruncate · #2 05-01-2005, 06:14 PM

One of the things I find most difficult to get a handle on at the moment is how hard to fight over small pots. This is an extreme example.

A river call seems like the worst option, but I'm curious to hear other people's opinions on this. Is it better to just fold this bad boy and get on with the next hand? Am I totally misreading the situation? Is this a case of misplayed earlier streets coming back to haunt me? Am I just a clueless tool who should let this thread die? Don't be shy.

NateDog · #3 05-01-2005, 06:19 PM

I routinely overplay the river, so on this I am an expert! [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Seriously though, I'm letting this one go. The pot is sooooo small. Maybe he's taking a shot at it, let him have it. He may take a shot at the next one when you take the free card on the turn and hit your draw on the river.

Oh, btw, I suck at all of this. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

kenberman · #4 05-01-2005, 06:20 PM

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A river call seems like the worst option

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why?

aK13 · #5 05-01-2005, 06:24 PM

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A river call seems like the worst option

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why?

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Risking 2BB to win 2BB, I'd rather just fold.

Aaron W. · #6 05-01-2005, 07:14 PM

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A river call seems like the worst option

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why?

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Risking 2BB to win 2BB, I'd rather just fold.

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That's a poor way of thinking about it. I'd risk 2BB to win 2BB as long as I've got better than a 50% chance of winning. Poker is all about finding +EV situations and taking them. It's not about the investment/return ratio, especially in shorthanded games.

aK13 · #7 05-01-2005, 07:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
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A river call seems like the worst option

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why?

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Risking 2BB to win 2BB, I'd rather just fold.

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That's a poor way of thinking about it. I'd risk 2BB to win 2BB as long as I've got better than a 50% chance of winning. Poker is all about finding +EV situations and taking them. It's not about the investment/return ratio, especially in shorthanded games.

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True statement. But against a field of 3? and 6 max also means the range of hand is greater. I don't think Hero is good 50% of the time.

I'd probably call, then fold, then raise.

Shillx · #8 05-01-2005, 06:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
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A river call seems like the worst option

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why?

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Yeah I was wondering this as well. All 3 options don't look great to me, but calling doesn't appear to be that bad in this spot. The biggest reason not to call is to prevent UTG from overcalling with a better hand. The only thing that I'm wondering is...can he have a better hand here? Certainly he would bet a pair of jacks or tens on the flop. He might have a six but it is doubtful. He might have a medium pocket but again that is doubtful. Calling doesn't really look like a bad play if you think that you have the bettor beat here.

Brad

detruncate · #9 05-01-2005, 06:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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A river call seems like the worst option

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why?

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Yeah I was wondering this as well. All 3 options don't look great to me, but calling doesn't appear to be that bad in this spot. The biggest reason not to call is to prevent UTG from overcalling with a better hand. The only thing that I'm wondering is...can he have a better hand here? Certainly he would bet a pair of jacks or tens on the flop. He might have a six but it is doubtful. He might have a medium pocket but again that is doubtful. Calling doesn't really look like a bad play if you think that you have the bettor beat here.

Brad

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The lack of a bet by UTG made me think that a J was not very likely. He was fully capable of playing a T or 6 this way though.

I felt that the decision was whether it was worth putting any more chips in the pot at all. If so, I felt that the chance of UTG overcalling with a better hand was sufficient cause to raise. I may have been over-estimating the chances of him folding to a raise with these hands, though.

There's also the issue of whether it was a value raise wrt SB. I thought so at the time, figuring that he'd call with a beaten hand often enough.

The meta-game considerations were not much on my addled mind at this point, but I think it's an interesting question in hindsight. Is it better to encourage or discourage river shots? I lean toward discouraging them in this case as SB didn't seem to be just betting indiscriminantly, but I couldn't ever be sure enough to be totally comfortable routinely folding good aces enough... or dubious enough to be routinely calling with them. Probably one of those game theory randomized calldown situations I don't give enough thought to.

Bah. I suck at this game.

yellowjack · #10 05-01-2005, 06:28 PM

I like it. First off, from your read you're ahead. It depends on how many orbits you've played with the two, but I am assuming you've played a significant amount of hands with them. You've seen him pick up pots on the turn and river, but you haven't seen how he reacts to aggression on the river. We're about to see it. This play is also good to mix things up and if there's a showdown, you definitely stir things around for other players.

This will cost you an extra bet if you're beat, but you may get an extra bet if he has a lower pair or kicker. The probability that you being beat and him calling you vs. the probability of you having a better hand than him and him calling you is good enough to raise here.

After this hand, I'll bet SB is more timid in trying to pick up pots. Otherwise you can make some money off him by letting him bet your top pair for you on later streets.