Players Union

[Stu Pidasso]

High volume players generate a significant amount of revenue for online poker sites. High volume players fill tables. The more tables a site has going, the more rake it generates. When an 8-tabler logs off party, its almost equivalent to a table breaking up. Think about it, when you log off, your seat will be filled by another player. Had you continued playing, those players who would have taken your seat must take a seat somewhere else. Thus new tables are created. From an online poker sites prespective, everytable not created is a table lost, and every table lost is revenue lost.

Instead of talking about striking party poker, what high volume players should be doing is thinking of ways to leverage their value for there own enrichment. High volume players are entitled to earn as much money as they possibly can. Anything less is weak tight.

Imagine a poker players union that represented hundreds of high volume players. The union would collectively bargain with online poker sites in order to come up with the best deal for its members. For example, suppose a poker players union negotiated with Party Poker for a 40% rake rebate for its members. The rebate would be paid directly into the player's account by party poker. In order to collect the rebate the players would have to play a required number of hours(or hands). To facilitate the whole deal, Party Poker would need to create a private skin in which union players accessed the site.

For the union to have bargaining power, it would need to negotiate and be willing to do business with sites other than party poker. In cases where the union made deals with other sites, its members would need to commit to playing the required number of hours at those sites.

The union would need some sort of financial support and some sort of dues system would be necessary.

Comments?

Stu

[Shoe]

Nice ideas... but unfortunately i think it is just wishful thinking.

If by some act of God, they actually did make a private skin for us, it would need to include the BBJ, and HHJ tables as well.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice ideas... but unfortunately i think it is just wishful thinking.

If by some act of God, they actually did make a private skin for us, it would need to include the BBJ, and HHJ tables as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a hypothetical example of how a union might be able to benefit its members. A players union of several hundred players would represent a revenue stream(to be won or lost) of tens of millions of dollars a year. For that kind of money an accomodation of a private skin would be doable.

Stu

p.s. they can keep HHJ out of the skin, with the juice their taking, i highly suspect its a suckers game.

[Shoe]

[ QUOTE ]
p.s. they can keep HHJ out of the skin, with the juice their taking,

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing they would completely own the skin, and would take the same cut.

[ QUOTE ]
i highly suspect its a suckers game.

[/ QUOTE ]

My point exactly. I want to play where the suckers are.

[O Doyle Rules]

Hi Stu,

As I replied in the other thread you started I think this an excellent idea. However, I think using the term "union" and "dues" is perhaps not the best terminology that could be used. It tends to suggest that we are working for the online poker industry and this might scare off some (or many) of the high volume players you would hope to attract.

I for one would rather be considered just a consumer of this industry. We would be merely getting a large discount of the service we are paying for due to the high volume of business our group would provide. I think perhaps calling it something like the High Volume Poker Players Discount Club could be more beneficial. (Kind of like a Sam's Club for poker players.) Just like Sam's one would need to be qualified to join (with proof of being a high volume player) and would have to pay an annual membership fee.

PS - I think the 40% discount figure is too low to start, if we really want 40%, we need to ask for at least 50% rake return. (Which I really think is doable.)

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
As I replied in the other thread you started I think this an excellent idea. However, I think using the term "union" and "dues" is perhaps not the best terminology that could be used. It tends to suggest that we are working for the online poker industry and this might scare off some (or many) of the high volume players you would hope to attract.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with what you are saying, I chose "union" because it was what came to mind at the time I wrote that post. A bad choice of words. In reality its more of an association of players who bargain with sites collectively in order to acheive volume discounts.

Stu

[pokerplayer28]

you guys overestimate how valuable you are to a site. They know youll play where you make the most money so give money back to high volume players? or use it on marketing which will attract more fish to the site and you keep the high volume players?

remember choice poker 50% rakeback where are they now?
zerorake no rake where are they now?

[Michael Davis]

"you guys overestimate how valuable you are to a site."

I concur.

-Michael

[teamdonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
"you guys overestimate how valuable you are to a site."

I concur.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

It takes me about 5 seconds to open poker tracker and find out exactly how valuable my business is. Now i don't generate 5 digit monthly rake figures, but my understanding is there are people on these forums that do. These people are extremely valuable to the sites they play on, and in any sort of organized group they represent a huge amount of bargaining power.

[ QUOTE ]
8 fish are playing in a game with 2 8-tabling 2+2 sharks. Who gets the money? The sharks make their 2 BB hour off the fish, cashes out and pays the rent with it; Party scoops up the remains.

10 fish in a game. Who gets the money? Party gets all of it over time.

Who do you think are "the whales" in Party's eyes? Who do you think are the "card-counters and advantage player scum"?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is just ignorant. Party gets the same amount of rake from a table no matter what the fish/shark ratio is. You're not winning money from the site (like a card counter), but from the other players.

Advantages i have over a player who just created an account on party today:

1. i play multiple tables, which generates more rake
2. i play more hours/week, which generates more rake
3. the new player may end up being a long term rake contributer, but most likely will lose a few hundred dollars and quit. i will keep paying rake for at least the next few months, and more than likely the next few years.

How much more valuable am i rake wise than a new player? 25x? 50x? The number gets rediculous if you're talking about someone playing at higher stakes (i'm a low stakes guy). The point is, WE are the whales. These sites aren't just looking for new customers, they're looking for new customers who will eventually turn into us. A marketing strategy that takes us into account only makes good financial sense.

[pokerplayer28]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"you guys overestimate how valuable you are to a site."

I concur.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

It takes me about 5 seconds to open poker tracker and find out exactly how valuable my business is. Now i don't generate 5 digit monthly rake figures, but my understanding is there are people on these forums that do. These people are extremely valuable to the sites they play on, and in any sort of organized group they represent a huge amount of bargaining power.

[ QUOTE ]
8 fish are playing in a game with 2 8-tabling 2+2 sharks. Who gets the money? The sharks make their 2 BB hour off the fish, cashes out and pays the rent with it; Party scoops up the remains.

10 fish in a game. Who gets the money? Party gets all of it over time.

Who do you think are "the whales" in Party's eyes? Who do you think are the "card-counters and advantage player scum"?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is just ignorant. Party gets the same amount of rake from a table no matter what the fish/shark ratio is. You're not winning money from the site (like a card counter), but from the other players.

Advantages i have over a player who just created an account on party today:

1. i play multiple tables, which generates more rake
2. i play more hours/week, which generates more rake
3. the new player may end up being a long term rake contributer, but most likely will lose a few hundred dollars and quit. i will keep paying rake for at least the next few months, and more than likely the next few years.

How much more valuable am i rake wise than a new player? 25x? 50x? The number gets rediculous if you're talking about someone playing at higher stakes (i'm a low stakes guy). The point is, WE are the whales. These sites aren't just looking for new customers, they're looking for new customers who will eventually turn into us. A marketing strategy that takes us into account only makes good financial sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

10 fish buy in $200 each, eventually party will net $1500-$1900

8 fish 2 high volume player all buy in for $200 the 2 high volume players net $300 leaving party with $1000

$1500 > $1000

here for multitabling
9 fish $200 each party gets about $1500
9 fish
9 fish
9 fish
$1500 x 4 = $6000
9 fish 1 multitabler
9 fish 1 multitabler
9 fish 1 multitabler
9 fish 1 multitabler
if the multi tabler busts out the fish and profits $2000 in the process that leaves $5200 for party

crude examples but u get the idea