My turn to misplay KQ

Phil Van Sexton · #1 04-19-2005, 01:56 PM

This is 2 hands after the JJ hand. In that hand, the button raised, I pushed from the BB with JJ, and he called me with KQ and lost.

I thought that was awful by him. In a twist of fate, now I have KQ on the button. Can I do any better?

Background:
- Villain hadn't been involved in any big hands. He min-raised once at level 2 and limped on several other occasions, but never showed a hand.
- I had been the button once already at level 3. Folded to me with AKs. I raise to 150, blinds fold.
- On the previous hand, the Villian limped UTG and called a 175 raise from the BB. BB checks the flop, villian bets 2/3 pot, BB min-checkraises, villian mucks.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter

SB (t2990)
BB (t585)
UTG (t1150)
MP1 (t1335)
MP2 (t655)
CO (t1180)
Hero (t2105)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero raises to t150, 1 fold, BB raises to t585 (All-In), Hero ???

Apathy · #2 04-19-2005, 02:02 PM

I might be the only one, but I think you have to call this. Especially since you raised the same guy on this level last time on the button, you stand to do well against his hand range. Your getting great pot odds, and if you lose 430 more chips that's not such a big deal since you will still have a good stack for level 4 and 5.

Phil Van Sexton · #3 04-19-2005, 02:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I might be the only one, but I think you have to call this. Especially since you raised the same guy on this level last time on the button, you stand to do well against his hand range. Your getting great pot odds, and if you lose 430 more chips that's not such a big deal since you will still have a good stack for level 4 and 5.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did call, of course. Maybe I should have asked the question differently.

My only decision was whether to fold preflop or not. When I bet 150, I had already decided I would call if the BB pushed.

What would you do preflop here?

The Yugoslavian · #4 04-19-2005, 02:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]

What would you do preflop here?

[/ QUOTE ]

So....Phil is asking about pre-flop play?!?! Wowie zowie!!

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Generally on level 3 I will fold or call with KQ in $33s and lower. Above that buyin I'd probably be more likely to fold or raise it.

In this situation I'd most likely limp. Most BB's aren't sophisticated enough to pull a 'Phil Van Sexton' on me and are likely to spew chips if I hit the flop (either b/c they hit it too or they bet later streets). Also, the SB will be encouraged to come along for the ride....if he's got a weaker K or Q, I'm gonna take quite a few of his chips too.

I don't mind folding here at all, btw.

I don't think raising is worth it at all in this situation...the risk/reward isn't juicy enough for me.

Yugoslav

Newt_Buggs · #5 04-19-2005, 02:58 PM

Before reading this post I would have definitly raised, but now I think that limping (or folding depending on the table) is the best play. I really don't want to create an image of a blind stealer just to take a stab at 75 chips with a marginally good hand. Limping puts you in good shape to catch a good flop or try a position bet.

pooh74 · #6 04-19-2005, 03:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Before reading this post I would have definitly raised, but now I think that limping (or folding depending on the table) is the best play. I really don't want to create an image of a blind stealer just to take a stab at 75 chips with a marginally good hand. Limping puts you in good shape to catch a good flop or try a position bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think the chances are you're gonna get popped by the BB with his stack?

Not a loaded question, just curious.

Jason Strasser · #7 04-19-2005, 07:18 PM

I am really serious here, I can not believe there are justifications here for folding or calling. Folding seems better than calling, but both options are absolutely horrible when compared to raising.

I want a serious explanation for why limping (OPEN LIMPING ON THE BUTTON HERE?) is a viable option. I also want a range of hands you'll do this with. I also want an explanation for why you dont raise here. I didnt read this entire thread through, but I am seriously in shock.

Open limping on the button really has no place in a sng past maybe level 2. I never do it.

Irieguy · #8 04-19-2005, 08:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am really serious here, I can not believe there are justifications here for folding or calling. Folding seems better than calling, but both options are absolutely horrible when compared to raising.

I want a serious explanation for why limping (OPEN LIMPING ON THE BUTTON HERE?) is a viable option. I also want a range of hands you'll do this with. I also want an explanation for why you dont raise here. I didnt read this entire thread through, but I am seriously in shock.

Open limping on the button really has no place in a sng past maybe level 2. I never do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, here's something to think about Strassa...

There are situations, even in a SNG, where a play that is difficult to exploit will still have an even better alternative.

Everybody knows that aggressive late position play and blind pressure is a winning tactic... and the later in a SNG you are, the better the tactic is.

BUT, there are many situations against many players where seeing a flop with position can be more profitable than blind stealing. This is an example in my opinion. The SB has a lot of chips, and the BB is getting a bit desperate and tired of the whole deal. There is a big range of hands with which they would be willing to take a flop against you, and KQ plays well in unraised pots with position (if you are a good post flop player.) You can still steal the blinds on the turn if you want to. But you can also extract extra chips from a whole host of possible postflop developments because of the chip situation. The SB is going to trap with any type of good hand because he knows that one of you is likely to take a stab at this. That makes it easy to play against him for value if he leads out. The BB will certainly push with second pair, or a matching pair with you and worse kicker. That could be cool.

So, my point isn't that you should limp. But I'm sure that I should limp, and to say that playing post flop with chips, against a shortish stack and another player with chips in a No-limit structure is "absolutely horrible" demonstrates a hole in understanding about no limit holdem and what can happen after the flop.

You don't have to agree with me... but to discount my explanation altogether is to ignore an entire component of no limit play that could, at some point, come in handy... even in a SNG.

Irieguy

Apathy · #9 04-19-2005, 03:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What would you do preflop here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm not sure it makes much difference but I would have made it 175 to go instead of 150, but I certaintly would have raised. Folding is second best while limping is tragic imo.

pooh74 · #10 04-19-2005, 03:23 PM

Folding is second best while limping is tragic imo.

That might be a bit overstated...in fact, IF you believe limping is "tragic" then raising is as well. Actually, i retract that, raising will definitely fold the SB, barring a monster, which is huge, granted. But i dont think the gap is applying much more to bb here. IOW I dont think there are many hands that he'd fold to a raise that he wouldnt pop a limp with.