trouble with maniacs in 4/8

[bodie]

Hi everyone,

First of all, my question pertains to live play at a B&M.
I'm trying to figure out if this is mainly my problem, or if others get in the same situation. Normally I play Omaha 8, and I find that game easy to understand and control, even when maniacs are playing. When I play Holdem, I usually play 4/8 or NL - but it's at 4/8 where I find this problem of players who raise nearly every hand and often cap the betting before the flop. When they flip their cards they usually have something like 7,3o - and yet they often win because they've driven others out of betting. I find it difficult to figure out. Many times they do it on kill pots where their initial raises really make it hard to enter without a premium hand.
I know others say to isolate the maniac, and if you have a premium hand I can see paying the price to do that. But what if you have a medium pocket pair, or J,Qs?
Do you have to just wait for position and a perfect premium hand or leave the table?
I get discouraged and annoyed when I find myself at a table like this - and it seems to happen alot at this limit. 4/8 seems to be just high enough for players to build big pots, and just low enough for them to afford to do it.'
Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
When they flip their cards they usually have something like 7,3o - and yet they often win because they've driven others out of betting. I find it difficult to figure out. Many times they do it on kill pots where their initial raises really make it hard to enter without a premium hand.
I know others say to isolate the maniac, and if you have a premium hand I can see paying the price to do that. But what if you have a medium pocket pair, or J,Qs?


[/ QUOTE ]
Isolate...show down your hand....Isolate...show down your hand...Iso...........

[bodie]

Thanks for the reply.

I guess it's as simple as that.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess it's as simple as that.

[/ QUOTE ]
It really is. The absolute worst thing you can do is to start just cold calling preflop and then folding turns or especially rivers for one bet.

[crunchy1]

Let's be clear though - this strategy really pertains mainly to having one (or two) maniac(s) in the game. It's also dependant on other players respecting your attempts to isolate.

It seemed that the OP was referring to a game where there were several maniacs populating the table and creating a situation where virtually all pots were raised and capped PF. IIRC the strategy in these types of games is to tighten up and stick to only playing the premium hands.

[bodie]

It seems to be both ways - many times several maniacs as if all they enjoy is raising every street to cap. In those cases it's easier to wait for a premium hand, though I have gotten stuck when I was the kill pot and completed to the first raise, before I knew it I was in for $32.00 preflop! Thank God I won that hand, boy was revenge sweet.
It seems that when there's one maniac there are many other passive players who will call to go along for the ride, however I will try to isolate more and see how it goes. What caliber of hand are you looking for when you isolate against a psycho maniac who may have absolutely nothing, just the most premium?

[chief444]

Yeah, I was just referring to the comment on isolating. With two in the game it's a little more tricky. It can be very profitable but the variance will be just ridiculous if two players are raising each other with junk constantly.

[Onaflag]

I could have written this post. The small card room I play in can just get freakin' nuts. It's an absolute no-brainer to be a long term winner on one of the 3/6 tables, but the 4/8 table is out of this world and I don't know how to play it.

It starts out 4/8, then half kill around 11pm, then full kill around 2am. Then it's balls to the wall and I get creamed when I play it. These guys "know" how to play, but don't. 7 way preflop caps, no-peak til the river, you name it. You would think there'd be a way to make some serious money at that table, but I haven't figured it out.

Onaflag...........

[bodie]

onaflag,
I'm sorry to say it was a relief to read your post - I do think it has something to do with this limit of 4/8. I don't call that "playing poker" but rather more like "playing chicken" where the winner depends on who just happens to have the better match with the board at the end.
I really don't like it, though you see these huge pots that make your mouth water....I can't figure out a way to rationally beat it enough to make it worthwhile. I was in Vegas a couple of months ago and there were two guys at my table (at mandalay bay) and both of them were doing it. It was like a huge joke between them to see who could have the worse hand at the show down, while meanwhile everyone else was just trying to make a decent hand against them. The room was so crowded that it was either stay on that table or leave.

[Still the Spank E]

First of all, what I find is that it's rarely the same guy doing the winning. The illusion is that LAG's win big all the time by playing that way, but the reality seems to be that its always a different guy with the big bunch of chips playing that way when we first sit down with our rack--at least in my experience. 'Like they take turns.

The illusion is aided by the fact that we never know how long he's been sitting there; how much of the mountain of chips he's sitting behind did he buy in with (a rack at a time, naturally); and how recently was he "down to the felt", as they say? These guys go on amazing tears both positive and negative--it just feels annoying when you sit there watching it. All poker authors will tell you the same thing--when these guys get on a run they can fill chip racks as fast as the runners can bring 'em, and when they're losing they're donating their kids' college tuition to you and me and everyone else at the table. But bear in mind, you're gonna be winning the same amount of money from the table if you play tight and aggressive, so it doesn't matter how the others divide up the money you're not a part of, anyway. Who cares if one guy is getting it, or eight players are dividing it up equally. What matters is how you play the next hand, not anything else. I feel your frustration, though, believe me.

As to how to play 'em. I find that loosening my standards A LITTLE BIT is the way to isolate them once you can get position on them (i.e., as close to their left as you can). If you can't get very close, you usually have to wait until yours is the first bet after theirs (i.e., everyone between has folded). Isolate 'em with A10o and outplay 'em once the flop comes down. By outplay 'em, I mean bet aggressively on the flop with or without cards. If they stick with you and you've hit one of your cards (A10o, or KQs, or something of this nature--but no worse), stick it to 'em; if not, bail hard and fast. Don't try to jam Ace high down their throats, but believe that your TP TK is all you'll need against these guys more often than not. One mistake people make is thinking that QJo is a suitable raising hand under these conditions. It's not. And if you can't raise with it, you'd better not call with it because half a dozen other players who also want to be in the pot with this guy and his 73o hands will be in there, too, and your QJo is worthless. Yes, if it were just he and you, QJo probably represents overcards to 89% of the hands he plays, but raising (or reraising) on just overcards when neither of them is an Ace or a King is suicidal in the long run, and calling presents the problem just discussed. But that's just me.