Pocket 7's out of position

Slappz · #1 04-11-2005, 08:27 PM

First orbit, I felt a ton of weakness in MP2's betting, but i've also run into a lot of people who weak bet their overpairs on the flop to generate some action heads up so I didnt want to play a big pot.

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 10 handed) converter

SB ($341)
BB ($547.95)
UTG ($449.2)
Hero ($591)
UTG+2 ($488)
MP1 ($194.45)
MP2 ($457.15)
MP3 ($465.25)
CO ($228.65)
Button ($332.85)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $3.
1 fold, Hero calls $6, 2 folds, MP2 raises to $12, 5 folds, Hero calls $6.

Flop: ($33) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $10, Hero calls $10.

Turn: ($53) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $20, Hero calls $20.

River: ($93) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $90

dark_avenger · #2 04-11-2005, 09:46 PM

on the turn i think you're definately beat and should fold.

on the river i think that this bet is a mistake because i don't think you'll get overpairs/ aj/ kj/ to fold, unless you know that your opponent is weak, and he's definately not folding if he has a ten.

usually with mid-pockets i fold if i don't flop a set or if the flop doesn't come all undercards.

Apathy · #3 04-11-2005, 11:04 PM

Looks ok to me, I think you should bet slightly less on the river.

I assume you wouldnt bet unless the spade or a 7 hit. Correct?

I usually only try this stuff on peope I have labelled as laydown "artists".

Slappz · #4 04-11-2005, 11:37 PM

I had the guy on missed overcards maybe AQ, KQ after that weak flop bet, then the turn bet looked exactly like KQ with the straight draw and overcards. I guess i could have checked down that river, but I didnt want him taking another stab at me, and with such weak bets i found it very hard to fold my 77 on any of the streets.

FeelGoodAboutHood · #5 04-11-2005, 11:50 PM

If you have him read for KQ, you checking and him taking another stab at you is exactly what you want. That's the best thing that could happen. The second best thing is that he checks behind, which he probably does with whatever you beat and with plenty of other hands that you don't.

I guess my problem with the hand is that I don't really understand why you have him read for overcards the entire way and give him a chance to fold them on the river.

beta1607 · #6 04-11-2005, 11:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I guess i could have checked down that river, but I didnt want him taking another stab at me

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems a little backwards to me. You think that you are ahead here but what hand is going to call that river bet that you are ahead of? I think check-calling the river is a better option so that you can snap off the KQ/ AK bluff.

THATWACOKID · #7 04-12-2005, 12:45 AM

After the weak flop bet I would probably raise there. If he doesn't have anything then he will fold. If he does then he will either call or raise and you are done with the hand unless you improve. If you have him for over cards then he has a good chance at hitting one. I think this will also be cheaper than check-calling the turn most of the time (not in this case). Does anyone else think like me on this one?

WACO

PeteGI · #8 04-12-2005, 01:32 AM

I think your position here is key. I will have to disagree with you here WACO, because if he has him pegged on overcards he will be calling a bet made on that flop with a wide range of hands/draws, and so you won't get much information if he flat calls. Also if you check-raise here(flop) he will most likely call unless he has a very weak hand, but again putting him on overs such as KQ, I am not sure that he would fold two over's and an open-ended straight draw. Smooth calling the flop is the right move. When a blank came out you should have bet strong to see if he was on the draw and get him out. If he calls then you are done. He could very well be sitting on Ad Jd here, and not be worried about the draw.

Rick Nebiolo · #9 04-13-2005, 05:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
First orbit, I felt a ton of weakness in MP2's betting, but i've also run into a lot of people who weak bet their overpairs on the flop to generate some action heads up so I didnt want to play a big pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

If people are "weak betting overpairs" in order to "generate action" then they are not only minimizing profit when they win but they are asking to get busted more often, unless they get away from the hand more easily by keeping the pot small. But my guess is these opponents marry their overpairs and weak betting overpairs is just another sign of playing poorly.

Once again regarding your opponent, I don't understand these bets of twenty to thirty percent of the size of pot. Will these players bet made hands this weakly too? I haven't played any PL online and wonder if this is common, because in PL B&M ring games you rarely see these itsy bitsy bets given that in most areas the pot limit players are more experienced than the no limit players (NL has a much greater influx of people that came into poker as a result of TV poker).

I don't think its that easy to put this guy on overcards or a draw with overcards. He can have a real hand and the way to find out and/or charge him for his draw is to put in a near pot sized bet (and I like leading rather than going for the checkraise) on the flop. Given you checked, it is correct to call the small bet but then come out and lead at the turn when essentially a blank comes. Once again you find out if your hand is still best and at least charge draws a decent price (these itsy bitsy bettors shouldn't be the types to raise on a draw).

The big river bet just doesn't make sense against the hands you put him on and after the previous action. Better to check and call or put in a bet about half the size of the pot.

~ Rick

knifeandfork · #10 04-13-2005, 09:17 AM

I know its party and i put people on overs way too much in hands like these. i like your line. i think its a good line because this player seems very inexperienced for these levels. the question that comes to my mind is what/why is he min raising preflop? after i saw the minibets on the flop and turn i d go with my thoughts that he is new/bad and thus i definitely like putting in the pottish bet at some point the turn doesnt seem like the place to come alive and the river does this time so i like it im just curious what folks think when they see odd betting patterns from a basically unknown player. i think he will fold some hands that beat you and an inexperienced player might holfd here like 99,88, a jack etc. jsut my thoughts,
jason