KINGS FROM HELL

dark_horse · #1 04-08-2005, 01:02 AM

Both of these hands occurred within 20 minutes of each other. Please rate my play as I go jump out the window.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB calls, UTG+2 folds.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB calls.

River: (8.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, BB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 11.75 BB

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB folds.

Turn: (7 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 10 BB

tijean · #2 04-08-2005, 01:26 AM

I assume you're jumping out the window because you realize both folds were a mistake.

Hand 1: You probably lose here, but I look him up anyway.

Hand 2: What's your screenname on Party? I'm gonna be clearing the Empire bonus this weekend, and I want to play at your table. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

cold_cash · #3 04-08-2005, 02:12 AM

Against a certain type of opponent, (a type that actually represents a fairly large percentage of the online poker population), I don't have a problem with either of these hands.

Malachii · #4 04-08-2005, 02:36 AM

I'd fold the second one in a split second unless I knew him to be tricky. The top card on the board pairing is the absolute worst thing that can happen to an overpair.

Shillx · #5 04-08-2005, 02:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd fold the second one in a split second unless I knew him to be tricky. The top card on the board pairing is the absolute worst thing that can happen to an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why you should be more inclined to call down in this spot. People love to bluff this ish and you should be savvy enough to recognize this pattern. You also have to ask yourself..."Would this guy raise top pair on the flop?"

Brad

Edit: I made it seem like you should call this hand down when he raises the scare card. I mean that you should be more inclined to call down a scare card then a non-scare card with all other things being equal.

GrandmaStabone · #6 04-08-2005, 02:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd fold the second one in a split second unless I knew him to be tricky. The top card on the board pairing is the absolute worst thing that can happen to an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why you should call down in this spot. People love to bluff this ish and you should be savvy enough to recognize this pattern. You also have to ask yourself..."Would this guy raise top pair on the flop?"

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

At these limits, no one is betting that scare card after all the flop action often enough to show a profit in paying this off. Also, you have not explained why you fold the first hand to just one more bet getting 10-1 on the river?

Malachii · #7 04-08-2005, 02:57 AM

I don't know man. Yes, he could be bluffing. But he called three cold, so it seems fair to assume that he's not a very strong player. I would call down against a player who I thought capable of making that kind of move, but that would be the exception rather than the rule.

Dave G. · #8 04-08-2005, 02:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd fold the second one in a split second unless I knew him to be tricky. The top card on the board pairing is the absolute worst thing that can happen to an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a concern when the pot is multiway with many players seeing the flop, but when only 2 opponents see the flop, it's not nearly as bad.

Once the turn shows the second queen, 2 villains will only have one queen between them about 16% of the time. That means, 84% of the time your overpair is good. Which means that you are folding incorrectly 84% of the time.

Yes you'll occasionally run into someone who just made trips, but this will be the exception not the rule.

Of course, if the opponent is super passive then you should be very concerned, but generally when it's short handed, the board pairing is not a great disaster. Infact it might even help you by counterfeiting a two pair hand.

GrandmaStabone · #9 04-08-2005, 02:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd fold the second one in a split second unless I knew him to be tricky. The top card on the board pairing is the absolute worst thing that can happen to an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a concern when the pot is multiway with many players seeing the flop, but when only 2 opponents see the flop, it's not nearly as bad.

Once the turn shows the second queen, 2 villains will only have one queen between them about 16% of the time. That means, 84% of the time your overpair is good. Which means that you are folding incorrectly 84% of the time.

Yes you'll occasionally run into someone who just made trips, but this will be the exception not the rule.

Of course, if the opponent is super passive then you should be very concerned, but generally when it's short handed, the board pairing is not a great disaster. Infact it might even help you by counterfeiting a two pair hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not JUST the fact that the top pair paired, but it also completed the flush draw.

Dave G. · #10 04-08-2005, 02:55 AM

Yes I realise this, I was just responding to the "top card pairing" post. I know the flush potential makes this considerably worse. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]