Beginner Tournament Hand: Did I do the right thing? Why?

[bluewilde]

Right then, so this is my first post. I'm a college freshman who's new to the game (started playing with my hall last September). I've played/read/re-read a lot since then, but I'm still very much a beginner (which is why I'm posting in this forum, redirect me if I belong somewhere else, Home Poker, perhaps).

Three weeks ago, some guys from another floor put together a building-wide tournament series. It's fairly informal: 20-25 people, $2 buy-in (blinds start .05, .10) with top 3 splitting the nightly pool and top 10 or so accumulating points for the overall pool. Generally the players are just as (typically more) inexperienced as me. There are a lot of reckless players and nothing ever seems worth posting (there are tighter players, but they're extremely passive and, again, not too interesting). Still, I try to focus and learn something (I really want to work on improving, not just playing). Maybe 4 or 5 of the other players are like this. Unfortunately, most players are intense and criticize other's play regardless of their own skill.

Tonight was the third game, and some new, older players began showing up. Last week I ended heads-up against an upper-classman ("Bully #1")(pretty aggressive, pretty loose, but still more thoughtful than the majority). Tonight one of his friends ("Bully #2") showed up--also looser/more aggressive, but still seemed to consider his hands more than most. In any case, here's the hand I found myself in against him. I don't think it's too sophisticated, but I just wanted to try posting my play and my logic and see what your reactions are.

7 players, very early on (even stacks all around, first 10 hands). I'm second to act, but wait a second as most everyone checks out their cards when they get them. Bully #1 (above)(2 to my left) seems legitimately uninterested and Bully #2 (3 to my left, on the button) checks his cards, glances at his chips and than stares across the table). The guy on my right folds. I'm not inclined to enter being so early, but I see

A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

and call. Girl on my left folds, Bully #1 folds, Bully #2 raises 0.20, maniac on his left calls("Crazy"), guy on his left folds and I call. (pot is 1.00) Flop is

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Crazy checks, I bet 0.20, Bully #2 raises to 0.40, Crazy folds and I call. (Pot is 1.80) Turn is

A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I check, Bully #2 bets 0.40. I'm pretty sure he just thinks I'm weak, but I don't rule out his being on A7 or even A2. Earlier I watched him overplay (IMO) A10o, so I don't respect his starting requirements. I call. (Pot is 2.60) River is

6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check, he goes all in (around 0.80), I call all-in (around 0.60).

I think the loose/aggressive evaluation is fair(he's been betting/raising on almost every hand), so would a fold here be bad? If he's managed to show-down some weaker hands,(or bet, be re-raised and fold) do I just have to pay him off (go out) if he's managed to hit a full house or trips with a better kicker? Sorry to be so long here, just wanted to give a good feel for where I'm at/what the situation is. If this isn't really a worthwhile hand to discuss, what kinds of hands would be (this just happens to be one where I'm not sure if I made the right move). Thanks for your thoughts,

Blue

[bholdr]

this is a great example of a good time to muck AJ preflop, IMO. it's only gonna get you into trouble.

One thing you might think about is, when you're in a pot with a loose aggressive player (LAG) you're gonna hold, on avarage, much better hands than them. think about re-raising a signifigant ammount preflop- for two reasons: A: you will have a good shot at isolating them - when you're holding a dominating hand, and B: they'll fold they're garbage hands if they know any better- you're in early position and are showing strength. if you think he's a thinking player, it's a pretty easy muck to a re-reraise, and you likely have him crushed if he only calls.

however, this is a tourney, not a cash game. it's not all about getting a little ahead, it's about winning the whole damn thing. you may be best off mucking ad waiting for a better spot to attack the loose guys.

[ QUOTE ]
what kinds of hands would be (this just happens to be one where I'm not sure if I made the right move).

[/ QUOTE ]
that is the perfect kind of hand to post.

maybe try getting your dorm to play for some real $$$, where they will take their stack seriously and your reading abilities and willingness to study the game will give you a big advantage? IMO, it's just worthless to try to put people on hands when A: they are terrible players, and B: they don't care about their chips. (and who the hell does when their beer costs more than their buy-in?)

GL to you. (but luck is the enemy) BTW, what happened? i have him on a weak ace- AT or worse. he may have a house, but... such is life.

[Bartman387]

Agree with the above post, I can see him having a marginal hand at best and just trying to buy his way out of a bluff or thinking you play just as bad of hands as him.

What was the outcome?

[Rosencrantz1]

I guess I'm on the fence in terms of folding AJ PF in this case. You've got a lot of LAG and some (sounds like) weak players at the table, and I think the chances of you ending up HU are good even though you'll be OP.

I do agree that your PF betting is a little off. Would have liked to see you raise instead of just calling the BB -- if only because you know you've got two bullies behind you and you need to get a read on their hands early.

Even if you do end up calling the BB, I definitely think a re-raise was in order once it gets back to you. You don't know enough about Bully 2's hand at this point and the raise will tell you (hopefully) something.

Once you get to the river, I guess I like the call. I mean, if you bust, you bust, but I definitely think the bully is on A10 or maybe AQ/AJ, although there is a chance, I suppose, that he's on KK/QQ/JJ as well.

Looking forward to the outcome.

[Pov]

This is for anyone who has posted so far because I'm curious. My read could be way off here and even if it isn't I'd like to know the reasoning that leads to the Villain as being weak for my own education. I definitely have a lot to learn when it comes to tournament play. So anyway, no one has put this guy on anything strong here when I think he has played exactly as though he has an AK or AQ type hand.

He looks strong then raises preflop.
He raises the flop when an Ace hits.
He puts in a pot builder, please don't leave bet when the second Ace hits. (others see this as a weak bet instead I assume?)
He puts in a value bet for our Hero's last $.60 on the end after the Hero called his strength all the way so far.

Hero called on the turn so I don't see the river bet as a bluff. There is basically no chance that Hero doesn't have an Ace here so KK or a worried Ace checks this through . . . Villain may be a bully, but he's been described as a thinking player.

[Rosencrantz1]

[ QUOTE ]

He looks strong then raises preflop.
He raises the flop when an Ace hits.
He puts in a pot builder, please don't leave bet when the second Ace hits. (others see this as a weak bet instead I assume?)
He puts in a value bet for our Hero's last $.60 on the end after the Hero called his strength all the way so far.


[/ QUOTE ]

You bring up a really good point, Pov. Just because villain has previously overplayed a marginal hand doesn't mean that he is doing that now. The only thing that might make me think he isn't sitting on a monster is a raise of only 2xBB. If he was really overplaying weaker stuff before (and let's assume he's not being clever, counting on people having good reads on his style of play and therefore deliberately mixing it up), I would sort of think he'd come in for a stronger raise with AK -- maybe 6xbb?

Let's see the outcome!

[Ilovephysics]

My first guess was AKo-ATo or KQs... but the money situation is making me rethink things a bit. It is very tough because the HERO never tested the Bully.

I.e., I think it is important that both players only started with around $2.00, e.g., 20BB. I think if the Bully had AK/AQ on the turn when their 3rd Ace hit, they would have pushed all-in to take such a large pot compared to their stack. That's typically what weak players do when they think they have the best hand. Only caveat is if they are really scared of being out of the tournament this early..

So I'm starting to lean toward A9-AT. They have to like their hand enough to go all-in against a weak caller who *will* call their all-in, e.g., another Ace, but I doubt they have the best ace or they ould have pushed at the turn.

[bluewilde]

First off, thanks for the responses. These forums are amazing. Everyone is incredibly helpful and thoughtful.

One clarification regards my evaluation of this guy's skill. Sorry if I overemphasized him as a "thinking player" and confused some of you (thinking seems opposed to LAP, especially early on). He thinks more than most of the guys that play, but common quotes for the group include,“You folded an Ace?!” or “Hmmm…folding the small blind, interesting.” So, qualifying him as “thinking more than most,” is not giving him too much credit.

In any case, here is what I'm hearing

A) If I'm in a LAG (in this case by virtue of all new (ish) players), I probably don't want to play this hand in this position when I'm unsure of my opponent’s strength. I know he likes his hand, but I don't know what that means. Therefore, I should wait for a better opportunity/position to fight back at my aggressors.

Q1: Specifically what hands/situations are you guys thinking I should wait for?

B) If I do play the hand, I shouldn't do it so timidly. I need to raise more strongly on the flop ("test" the villain) to have a better idea where I'm at. This way I wouldn’t find myself so confused on the river

This seems to be the lapse in my play. There was also, however, a lapse in my read, at least on following through. My initial reaction to seeing this guy check his cards was that he liked his hand. He went from casual/relaxed to quiet, like he was begging not to be noticed. However, when I hit my trips, I talked myself out of this. I convinced myself he might have overvalued something like Axs, KJ, KQ, or any mid-upper pair.

He'd been playing loose and I wanted to fight back at him for it, so I talked myself out of my initial impression that he had AK, AQ, AJ a pair or the chance his aggression had stumbled onto a full house. Wrong time for the wrong kind of mistake; I called to see AK.

One of the replies suggested that because he overplayed earlier hands didn't mean he was doing it this time. This was at the back of my mind during the hand, but I ultimately ignored it. I called because of how he had been playing, against my read on this particular hand. Still, I think what really cost me was playing in the first place and then getting sucked in by timid calls.

Somebody mentioned playing for more money to build a more serious game. We learned earlier on that larger buy-ins created some tension on the hall. But you make a good point:

[ QUOTE ]
They don't care about their chips. (and who the hell does when their beer costs more than their buy-in?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet, the fear of losing beer/sandwich money (or finding ones self naked and locked out of his room) is precisely what motivates these low buy-in tourneys. In general, these games are more recreational and I recognize that this is going to pull down the quality of play a lot. It seem like if I try to learn through just these games, it will take a while. So, how do you guys think I should start looking for a more serious game? Should I start in on micro-limits? Can I play online for real money if I'm only 19? Again, thanks for the input,

Blue

[Rosencrantz1]

The only response I will make (other than sympathizing that he flipped AK) is that I don't necessarily agree that you need to play for more money to improve your game. There's a lot of talk on the boards about how you have to stick to your game even when playing maniacs, etc. and I think that applies here -- even if you lose hands that you 'should' win, you can still look back and see that you played correctly and know that when you do play against better players, the choices you make will work for you.

Also, if that guy's a bully, try to get him on your right next time ;-)

[Pov]

I think you are going to do well, Blue. You seem to have picked up all the key points from the discussion.

AJ and KQ are some of the toughest hands to play from early position against a raiser, particularly a loose raiser you're not terribly familiar with. In general I would like to put some pressure on to see just how much my opponent likes his hand. But as another poster stated you are basically short-stacked from the beginning in this tournament so you may not have the luxury of applying pressure and then letting go or you've wasted a decent portion of your stack. There is not a straightforward answer, IMO. You'll just have to get the experience and learn to "feel" your way through these types of situation.

Great game, huh? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]