A preflop decision that I didn't know how to deal with

[AlmightyJay]

I think some of my biggest leaks come from mid pocket pairs that I don't play ideally. Here's a situation that came up when I was playing yesterday. At the time I didn't know much about the villian, he had only sat down within the past orbit or so. I've got 58 hands with him now and he's 37.93/3.45/0.51.

PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="blue">Hero...?</font>

I feel like this is a 3-bet or fold situation, but I don't feel comfortable playing a marginal hand like 88 postflop after I 3-bet. Advise me please [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Entity]

I'd 3-bet. You've got a good hand (not a marginal hand), initiative, and position.

Rob

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd 3-bet. You've got a good hand (not a marginal hand), initiative, and position.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're playing with a raise in front of you, you're either facing a) monster (big pair), or some decent broadway combo. After much contemplation, although I think playing this heads up gives hero best chance, the flop play will be tricky without a decent flop for hero i.e undercards or trips. True, hero will have position, but I don't think it warrants a 3-bet with an early middle position raise in front of him. This is one of those marginal situations, but I think it's a call/fold(call if he believes others behind will cold call) situation in my book.

[DeadRed]

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If you're playing with a raise in front of you, you're either facing a) monster (big pair), or some decent broadway combo.

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With MP2 being first in the hand, this raise could be a number of things beside what you are assuming. Many will raise any playing hand in this situation. I wouldn't be surprised to see (or make) this raise with Axs or any PP, so I don't think poster needs to worry they are 50/50 at best. I definitly raise here if not folding. (See my other - much longer - post on why I may fold.)

[FreakDaddy]

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[ QUOTE ]


If you're playing with a raise in front of you, you're either facing a) monster (big pair), or some decent broadway combo.

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With MP2 being first in the hand, this raise could be a number of things beside what you are assuming. Many will raise any playing hand in this situation. I wouldn't be surprised to see (or make) this raise with Axs or any PP, so I don't think poster needs to worry they are 50/50 at best. I definitly raise here if not folding. (See my other - much longer - post on why I may fold.)

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See my post. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Any "playing hand" I assume you mean decent limping hand, will leave you at even money after the flop. Trying to isolate at this level I don't think will work. If you can't get this heads up you are -EV on this hand. If you can you are break even. If pre-flop raiser was loose-agggressive/passive, I'd 3-bet this and hammer away after the flop. Otherwise I'd drop the hand. At this level though I'd advocate a call.

[DeadRed]

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Any "playing hand" I assume you mean decent limping hand, will leave you at even money after the flop.

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I think you're better than 50/50 vs Axs when the off card is 2 through 7 and crushing any PP below 8. This should more than make up for the hands when you're against a bigger PP. I would be ecstatic to get HU preflop. My entire nano-limit reason for folding is that you won't end up that way.

[elbuddha]

Since the raise came from your immediate right, and therefore there are no callers between you, you are correct that this is a raise or fold situation - cold calling here would be bad.

3-betting is asking for everyone else to get out of the way and for the hand to be played heads-up. You will not be looking to spike a set. You are expecting that your pocket pair stands up unimproved agaist whatever villian raised with. Since it was folded to villian, there is an increased possibility that he is raising lightly rather than with a premium hand and will not connect with the flop. You also have position, and can use villian's reaction to your 3-bet and his flop action to help determine your standing and your line.

As for what your line should be assuming it goes headsup to the flop: since you have position I don't think there's anything wrong with just making sure a bet goes in on every street - bet if checked to, call if bet into. Re-assess if you get checkraised or are bet into on a very scary board. Variations you could consider depending upon circumstances include taking a free-card on the turn to get a cheap showdown or induce a bluff, or checking behind on the river if checked to - but these should probably only be used if you have become convinced you can't bet for value but are not convinced enough to fold.

If your 3-bet gets cold-callers from the blinds, you are still in good shape but things get more complicated. Again, position helps. You still have a not-insignificant chance of your pocket pair holding up against the raiser and one blind, but might have to respect aggression from them depending upon the board. If both blinds come along, you stand less of a chance that you will hold up unimproved - but remember that if the blinds don't connect with the flop they will probably be looking for a reason to fold, which is good for your pocket pair and will hopefully leave you heads up with the raiser with more dead money in the pot - therefore if the raiser bets into you on the flop you should probably raise if you plan to continue with the hand in order to face the blind(s) with 2 bets.

[AlmightyJay]

Wow, thanks for the extremely detailed response, elbuddha!

After thinking about it on the table, I 3-bet. I figured 88 was just too good to throw away in that situation, plus I had position on the PFR. Care to comment on the rest of the hand?

PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, MP2 calls.

<font color="blue">Hmm, raiser just calls. That makes me think overcards or a passively played 99-JJ</font>

Flop: (15 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, MP2 calls.

<font color="blue">Check-call by PFR on the flop makes me sure he has overcards. But the calls by button and BB make me scared of one of them holding a T. Still, no raise..</font>

Turn: (9.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, BB folds, MP2 calls.

<font color="blue">Seems standard. If I get raised I probably call and release on the river</font>

River: (12.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP2 checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

<font color="blue">If button was chasing a flush draw, it just came in. Bet this river?</font>
Final Pot: 12.50 BB

[callydrias]

[ QUOTE ]
If button was chasing a flush draw, it just came in. Bet this river?

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Bet the river. There's no more reason to be scared of the flush draw than of someone holding a T, but you bet the flop and turn anyway [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[GuruCane]

Why bet the river? Isn't this the classic situation where you will only get called or raised by a better hand? Maybe not true at these limits so you may get two BB out of it.