Pitfalls of Winning- OR- Why I might just never play again.

[PokerDork]

First of all, I don't want this to sound like a boastful I win, but I'm not happy thread or something like that. Incidentally, I wanted to include the word Psychological and the beginning of the title but it wouldn't fit.

Anyway, I was a winning player for the 2 years that I played seriously starting at 1/2 limit then 1/2 NL, then back to limit playing 3/6-20/40 at various stages. Then a couple of months ago expenses started to increase quickly I dropped from 10/20 to 5/10, then expenses increased more, a 185 BB downswing hit, and I quit.

I understand that downswings like this are normal and this wansn't my first significant one, but it made me realize something. After I got my head out of my ass and started taking poker seriously, I found myself expecting to win. Normally expecting to win would carry with it the kind of confidence that is vital to success in any field (provided ego doesn't interfere).

As a result of my expecting to win I found myself merely content with winnings (ie a feeling of being where I should), and extremely frustrated with losses, especially those that were the result of variance give me my just deserts. The realization that the joy I experienced during my wins good no longer equal the frustration I felt in my losses, made me wonder if I should really play anymore. In the couple months I have been not playing (poker was my sole source of income, but I'm a student so I wouldn't have called myself pro), I have kept reading, thinking, and occassionally posting a hand that I rememberred from when I was playing. In a couple of weeks I'm starting a well paying job that will more than cover my current expenses and thankfully(?) will enable me to build my bankroll up fairly quickly. My goal is to save up to play 5/10 at my local casino- about $1500 more needed- since I'd rather play live than online (for happiness-related non-financial reasons), and I feel I can do this fairly quickly.

My ultimate question is, has anyone else experienced the similar lack of joy in winning, and what can I do to make it just a game again? I think the fact that I will no longer be financially dependent on poker will be a big factor, but any and all suggestions are most welcomed.

[Subfallen]

I don't think a great poker player is interested in having emotions strongly associated with any poker results. Losing "the joy of winning" is not a problem. Play clinically, dispassionately, creatively...but not emotionally.

Also, a 185 BB downswing is utterly insignificant.

[steamboatin]

I tried to touch on this subject in this thread.
Poker is Gambling

I am not a very good communicator so the thread didn't go the direction I thought it would but it is a good thread anyway.

You are in the same trap as me. All this studying and working on your game has you believing that Poker is mostly skill. When a fish sucks out on you, it is an afront to your skill and it is very reasonable to be upset when that happens. But Poker is Gambling, much more so than I and many of the posters on two plus two will care to admit.

The reason for all the study and practice is to make sure you only bet when you have the best of it. If someone chooses to gamble with the worst of it, that is a bad decision on their part but letting the outcome of a random event hurt your feelings or make you angry is not logical.

I will submit to you that it is not the game that is screwed up, it is our way of thinking about the game. Once you remember that the turn of the cards is a random event, you will begin to have a much less emotional experience.

All your skill and practice allows you to win more when you win and lose the minimum when you don't.

I have begun to visualize the flop and subsequent turn of the cards as the reels on a slot machine. My slot machine is set to a +EV payout and most of my competitors are playing a -EV machine.

Changing your thought processes and attitudes is never easy but this visualization (Thank God for spell check!) is helping.

PS. For the anal retentives in our midst, a shuffle is not absolutely completely random but it is pretty close if done correctly.

[Mike]

You can look at it this way- not original thought, btw. You have your group of players you play against, be it nine players you see every week, or 500 you play against on the net.

If you all play at about the same level, the wins are fiction, it is just variance at work. You win for a while, I get hot, you lose, Joe Schmoe gets his shot, we lose. and so on and so forth. So really no one is winnning, someone is just getting better cards that the rest during that week.

So after a while, your winning turn is over, and you start losing.

There is a good thread on it in Google. Carson was one of the posters, but I do not remember the title of the thread.

[IlliniRyRy]

[ QUOTE ]
You can look at it this way- not original thought, btw. You have your group of players you play against, be it nine players you see every week, or 500 you play against on the net.

If you all play at about the same level, the wins are fiction, it is just variance at work. You win for a while, I get hot, you lose, Joe Schmoe gets his shot, we lose. and so on and so forth. So really no one is winnning, someone is just getting better cards that the rest during that week.

So after a while, your winning turn is over, and you start losing.

There is a good thread on it in Google. Carson was one of the posters, but I do not remember the title of the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]


Great post, really puts things in perspective. I can definitely relate to what PokerDork is saying though, I still have trouble dealing with losses even though I've been beating the game for years now and my bankroll is probably big enough to play 30/60. I'm still grinding it out at 5/10 because I'm constantly second guessing myself when I lose. I somehow fear the games are changing to the point where I won't be able to beat them anymore. I tried 15/30 for a brief period and lost 7k, and have since made it all back and then some in 5/10. When you get to a certain level, you're right that you do have an expectation that you're going to win, so when you go through a significant losing streak, it can really get to you. Winning players learn to keep their emotions in check. So much of your long-term results in poker depend on your attitude, not just the way you play. If you can't learn to change your mindset, you'll experience the same frustration over and over again, even with enormous success.

[Mike]

I understand what you are saying. I think the current poker craze has covered up the reality of the game for many players. The game isn't the simple ATM that the average non player believes it to be.

I would guess the average winning 1/2 player online probably has more experience and knowledge than a significant portion of pro players of thirty years ago. A few hundred dollars buys an amazing amount of poker knowledge, as does twice the hands per hour.

It is also hard to find a level where you can play seriously and make $ while others are playing mostly for fun. It is much harder to make $ when everyone at the table is playing to win as we both know.

[toby]

I'm going to apologize ahead of time for not being able to reference this material, but I read an article in a medical journal about gambling and the brain and it covered what you mentioned very specifically - not feeling joy when you win, but still being frustrated when you lose.

When you win, the serotonin levels in your brain increase, giving you a feeling of reward. When you lose, serotonin levels decrease and you feel depressed or mad. After a period of time though (and this time period varies - its very short for gambling addicts) a win only boosts your serotonin levels a little bit - sort of like developing a tolerance for a drug. You need a bigger win for the same reward. However, losing still has the same effect.

The article said big league coaches have this effect too, which is a major casue of burnout or something. They have no reward for winning a game, but agonize over every loss.

So anyway, I'm sure everyone experiences this to some degree. I assume successful pros are able to psychologically separate themselves from the results of the game (this has been covered before in this forum plenty). If you find that you can't control your feelings about winning/losing, or can only feel good about winning ever-increasing amounts, then you might be in danger of gambling addiction.

If you can try to focus on only how well you play the hand, and ignore the results as much as possible, then you can get some enjoyment out of the game.

Hope that was a little insightful, good luck

[mosquito]

Okay, there are some interesting responses, but......

You are a good poker player. You win more than you
lose. You have good technique, and you are always
looking to improve your game.

So why the heck can't you enjoy 'making good plays' instead of being affected by random events, eg winning and losing????

mosquito

[PokerDork]

I think this is indeed the crux of my problem. I understand that winning and losing are things I should detach myself emotionally from, and I perhaps its good that I've removed the emotion from winning, but it is definitely bad that I have trouble removing the emotion from losing. Good points have definitely been made. I also want to say in repsonse to an earlier post that I'm not necesarily concerned with becoming a "great" poker player, I'd rather enjoy myself and be able to make a little extra money off my hobby. I feel that since I will be returning poker to the status of hobby, much of my stress will be reduced, however, if it is not, I've decided I will probably cease playing, as it would be -EH (expected happiness) as I was not enjoying myself. I was hoping more for responses that could help me ignoring or getting rid of the frustration, but oh well. I also want to note that I'm not prone to tilting at the table, as all of my frustrations really come after a bad session or series of sessions- often in the form of trouble sleeping, and even poker nightmares. I believe my problem is being too hard on myself, often attributing variance to bad play, when really I made very few mistakes- examples would include calling down after my TPTK got check-raised on the turn on a benign board, losing, and feeling like I played like a total donk. It even pains me to write that last statement as I feel like maybe I make more mistakes than I realize (probably true), but the games that I have played in have been so incredibly soft, that its dificult to imagine that my knowledge and experience don't give me an edge. I feel its definitely a good idea to view the game as pushing an edge while gambling, rather than trying to win every session no matter what. Gambling is, afterall, what poker is. If I'm able to keep the perspective that I am gambling, but doing so with a +EV, I hope to divorce my results and my emotions permanently.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
After I got my head out of my ass and started taking poker seriously, I found myself expecting to win. Normally expecting to win would carry with it the kind of confidence that is vital to success in any field (provided ego doesn't interfere).

As a result of my expecting to win I found myself merely content with winnings (ie a feeling of being where I should), and extremely frustrated with losses, especially those that were the result of variance give me my just deserts. The realization that the joy I experienced during my wins good no longer equal the frustration I felt in my losses, made me wonder if I should really play anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is sooo me, and I didn't even really realize it until I read this post. So in that regard, thanks. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I do find that I expect to win when I sit down at a table, and it is frustrating when I don't. I've learned at least to modify my expectations to winning on a daily or even weekly basis, and to shrug off a short downswing here and there. This helps.

In the end, though, even if I don't feel a sense of elation every time I win a decent sized pot or stand up from a table with twice as many chips as I sat down with, I still get my feeling of joy and accomplishment around the first of every month. This is when I cash out my winnings from the previous month, and let me tell you, when that chunk of change shows up in my bank account, that more than makes up for the frustrations of a week-long losing swing or a few terrible beats. Those cash-outs also made it possible for me to buy the beautiful SUV that's parked outside right now; the first truly new car in my life. And it definitely helps when you're driving the fruits of your labors. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

As a student deriving your sole source of income from poker, even this feeling would've been diminished as you subsequently forked over most of those winnings to pay the bills, and build up your savings account for this that or the other thing. Now that you'll be making the bill money in a normal 9-5 and can afford to use your poker money to buy neat toys for yourself, I think you'll be okay.