Undervaluing small PPs?

SeaEagle · #1 03-31-2005, 01:38 PM

Yesterday I discussed a hand here where a UTG+1 who's VPIP was 14% limped first in. A poster who's opinion I respect said that he would expect a 14% VPIP to play suited broadways and any PP from that position (in the hand, UTG+1 limped w/ 44).

Last night, playing 10/20 on Party, the play went:
UTG raises, 3 folds, MP2 calls (w/33)...
After the hand, when I politely mentioned that cold-calling in that position might not have been the most prudent play, several players disagreed with me.

A table would have to be pretty loose/passive for me to limp in EP w/ 44 and I would virtually never call a UTG raise 2nd in w/ 33. Am I undervaluing my small pocket pairs?

QTip · #2 03-31-2005, 01:51 PM

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A table would have to be pretty loose/passive for me to limp in EP w/ 44 and I would virtually never call a UTG raise 2nd in w/ 33. Am I undervaluing my small pocket pairs?

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These are 2 totally different situations. The cold call with 33 in MP is pretty bad unless your postive just about everyone behind you has a VPIP of about 70 and loves to cold call.

Limp EP 44 is all together different. Honestly, I'll say this. If you can't limp with a small pp in EP and you're playing a party skin SS, go find a different game.

Nick Royale · #3 03-31-2005, 02:04 PM

Do you feel comfortable playing 10/20? The cold call with 33 stinks. Calling first in with 44 in utg+1 is table dependant (don't know how the average 10/20 table looks like but I have a feeling folding would be fine).

QTip · #4 03-31-2005, 02:09 PM

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10/20?

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That's a good point. I've not seen the 10/20 tables, so I can't talk about that. I did specify SS in my reply, which I still stand by.

SeaEagle · #5 03-31-2005, 02:23 PM

For purposes of this post, please ignore the 10/20.

Maybe a more direct question would be what stats does your table have to have for you to limp in EP w/ 22-55? Cold call an EP raise 2nd in w/ 22-55?

Limping, I would need something like 35/5. I can't think of a situation I'd cold call a raise. I may reraise a really loose raiser, but never cold call. Too tight?

QTip · #6 03-31-2005, 02:28 PM

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Limping, I would need something like 35/5. I can't think of a situation I'd cold call a raise. I may reraise a really loose raiser, but never cold call. Too tight?

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I'm not up with tables stats.

However, I'm wanting to see something like 5 + to a flop as standard to limp small pp.

I don't think I'd ever reraise anyone in EP with small pp.

Cold Calling with a small pp is standard in a situation like this.

UTG raises, 3 calls to you in CO or button with 33, cold-call.

SeaEagle · #7 03-31-2005, 02:32 PM

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UTG raises, 3 calls to you in CO or button with 33, cold-call.

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I'm specifically talking about cold calling when 2nd in.

Nick Royale · #8 03-31-2005, 02:32 PM

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Maybe a more direct question would be what stats does your table have to have for you to limp in EP w/ 22-55? Cold call an EP raise 2nd in w/ 22-55?

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I would never cold call 2nd in with 22-55 (and only on very, very rare occasions reraise).

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Limping, I would need something like 35/5.

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I don't think you should look that much on table stats, they're often misguiding. But at passive tables with reasonable looseness I would limp every time. At good 2/4 tables I use to limp.

crunchy1 · #9 03-31-2005, 02:37 PM

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Limping, I would need something like 35/5.

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I assume the "5" there is a table-avg for Pre-Flop Raise? I think the table-average PFR stat doesn't matter that much (unless it's unreasonably high - where you at a table full of maniacs). I don't really care too much if I'm playing for one bet or two before the flop - I'm more interested in making sure there are 3-5 callers in with me padding the pot.

Of course this changes if there's a really aggressive player directly on my left because I don't want his raises constantly knocking all the players behind out of the pot.

The reverse would be true (as I believe someone already mentioned) where if the aggressive player was on your right but, there were several loose/cold-call-happy players on your left you could maybe get away with cold-calling a few of this player's raises.

SeaEagle · #10 03-31-2005, 02:45 PM

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I don't really care too much if I'm playing for one bet or two before the flop - I'm more interested in making sure there are 3-5 callers in with me padding the pot.

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So would I be correct in inferring that you would be more inclined to limp first in in EP than limp first in in MP?

What do you generally do if there's 4 folds to you in MP w/ 33?