Way ahead or way behind?

littlejohn · #1 03-25-2005, 04:31 AM

I saw this hand as a way ahead or way behind situation - so I opted for the check/call, check/call, bet river - until the river dropped an ace. Does anyone apply different logic here?

I only had like 19 hands vs. villian to this point and had not seen anything abnormal.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, UTG+2 3-bets, 7 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.66 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero?

mantasm · #2 03-25-2005, 04:34 AM

Sure. I'd go ahead and follow through with the plan on the river.

zephed56 · #3 03-25-2005, 05:41 AM

I think betting is better than check-calling since he may check his lower pocket pair behind.

I would fold to a raise. Right????

Also, I don't think check-folding is THAT bad either, small pot.

mantasm · #4 03-25-2005, 05:46 AM

This is an easy fold to a raise. I don't like check folding getting like 9:1 on a call when he could have TT-QQ or some other goofy hand you beat.

oreogod · #5 03-25-2005, 06:05 AM

Okay, true u could be beaten here. But the hands that beat u (AA, KK AK, 99 or KQ). What about a check raise on the flop, fold to turn bet? You could check call, depends on the situation...I just had one like this twice tonight. Against two different ppl. They both had QQ I had KJ one hand KQ the other. Check calling cost me bets I think. The next hand that came up, I took control of the hand on the flop (check raise) then he just called all the way to the end.

Not trying to get fancy and it might not or might be the appropriate play. But rather than check call, I like to find a way quickly if Im beat or not. You might be going to the river anyway. Top pair, decent kicker.

I think the best move (i say on the flop), bet/call or check raise. And if he bets the turn or comes over the top on the flop, fold the turn, although it seems weak tight, but if hes come over the top and keeps betting into u, he has something. Probably something that has u beat (unless hes crazy and really likes his pocket 10s)

This hand, I say AA-QQ (to many ppl seem timid with Jacks, but its possible) -- or AK, AQ. I would think he would be more inclined to let u chop at it if he flopped a set of Kings. But it is harder I think to put him on something that has u beat because u just check called all the way (could have 99-AA or AK-AJ, who knows) -- if I have no read, I want to find a way to quickly define if Im beat, I dont like check calling to the river.

Chime in if u want.

mantasm · #6 03-25-2005, 06:15 AM

If you check raise the flop then lead the turn, most people with underpairs to the K will fold to the turn bet. Otherwise if they're ahead they'll either three bet you or raise the turn. The idea is you lose the least when you're behind and get the most when you're ahead.

This is a pretty standard line (there's a thread you could search for, but it'd be hard to find) that is usually used for middle aces that flop top pair. I think it works fine here though, and in several other situations.

oreogod · #7 03-25-2005, 06:22 AM

This is true and might be the wiser option.

I just really hate check calling all the way wondering if Im beat or not. Thats the only problem I really have with it.

But what I was saying earlier, its just something that has been on my mind a bit lately...if there is a good way to define a hand and make it just as cheap as check calling without being too weak tight. Just an idea and maybe not a suitable one, Id be the first to admit.

this might be a more clear cut example for your solution. But what if the 3 bettor just called the raise preflop.

meep_42 · #8 03-25-2005, 12:12 PM

I think the Ace makes it really easy to fold to a raise. Bet the river. If he doesn't have an ace, or better he's probably not raising.

-d

runa · #9 03-25-2005, 03:12 PM

I don't think your logic really changes. The only hands that I see raising you on the river, assuming he's not overaggro, are essentially AK, AA, KK, 99, Ax 2-pair of some sort. If there's any chance he's pretty tricky and will try to bet you down with AQ, AJ, AT, I still think these hands would have a hard time raising the river. I like the river bet, and against non-tricky typical opponents folding to a raise is fine here.

littlejohn · #10 03-25-2005, 10:54 PM

Thanks for all the feedback - it appears as though many agree that the original line was correct and that the river ace should not have thrown me off. Here are the results - too bad for the river cause this was an ideal way ahead/way behind situation:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, UTG+2 3-bets, 7 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.66 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.66 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has Jh Kh (one pair, kings).
UTG+2 has Ah Qd (one pair, aces).
Outcome: UTG+2 wins 8.66 BB.