Thinking LAG

naphand · #1 03-16-2005, 11:24 AM

Much heard of on the boards, not that I have ever seen one, until today, perhaps.

TABLE CONDITIONS: Very aggressive. Almost no unraised pots PF and frequently 3-bet. UTG and MP are both tight and tricky, CO is loose and quite aggro, BB is a total fish who calls multiple bets with any hand he decides he is going to play, clueless. Player of interest is Button, quite loose (V$IP 40+) and extremely aggressive PF (PFR 30) and post-flop with draws and any pair. He has raised 46s UTG and 56o MP (flopping straights in both cases), his steal rate is phenomenally high (47+) so he is doing this with garbage. He calls down with A high or any pair, though has shown an ability to get out of hands when in trouble and avoid pots with the tight players in. He is not stupid, how smart is open to question, appears to be watching the game and reacting, and is certainly running pretty well.

Me, I am running horribly and feel like the Turkey at Turkey Shoot time. Probably not playing A1 but these kind of games interest me.

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Naphand is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, Button (TLAG) raises, Naphand 3-bets, BB calls, Button (TLAG) caps, Naphand calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Naphand checks, BB bets, TLAG raises, Naphand 3-bets, BB calls $3 (All-In), TLAG calls.

Turn: (9 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
Naphand bets, TLAG raises, Naphand calls.

River: (13 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
Naphand checks, TLAG bets, Naphand calls.

Final Pot: 15 BB

3-bet PF against a 50% stealer I think is OK (easy to play post-flop) plus the fish is throwing away his last chips, great flop, horrible Turn but I do not think I can fold here to this kind of player. Comments on my play welcome esp. those who understand this smarter type of LAG player.

ProfLupin · #2 03-16-2005, 11:30 AM

I think that I would check/call when the ace shows on the turn. I agree that you probably can't fold to this type of player, but I don't think betting out on the turn is a good idea unless you are going to fold to a raise.

Bad Beat Coming · #3 03-16-2005, 11:32 AM

Really interesting post. I sort of am that type of player, and so I speak from a little experience. I think you have to fold to the turn raise. My sense is that that flop raises from those types dont mean much, but that turn raises generally do. This is more true than usual here, because you've (a) three bet the flop out of position, indicating a very strong hand (b) bet the turn when the A hits, which would sure look like it hit that strong hand you are representing, and (c) despite all of that, he's still confident enough to raise.

Interested in the results.

Agree, btw, that you basically ignore the all in guy.

BBC

sqvirrel · #4 03-16-2005, 01:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Really interesting post. I sort of am that type of player, and so I speak from a little experience. I think you have to fold to the turn raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense but if the only thing you'd raise the turn with is something that beats top pair then you aren't that sort of player.

This hand needs a showdown. Win or lose I would have played the same way.

Gazza · #5 03-16-2005, 11:50 AM

I've forgotten what the blind structure is at 3/6. Is it 1-3? If so then I think you should fold pre flop. I think you want showdown value if you get it heads up against this player as I would hate to fold against him at any point. So I would prefer to 3 bet with a hand like A5 but QJ would have to be suited for me as we will sometimes be forced to fold on the river.

ggbman · #6 03-16-2005, 12:46 PM

Why on earth would you lead this turn? You get him to fold worse hands and pop you with better ones. Simple as that.

naphand · #7 03-16-2005, 01:17 PM

The Turn is an important play here, but the reason I bet is; once this guy goes past the flop for multiple bets he sees the showdown. I have seen him call to the SD with T7 (just to see the cards?), he will also do this with any PP. Reasons to value bet the Turn IMO. He will also bluff this quite a lot IMO. After the PF and flop action LAG will go to SD, he will never be pushed of any kind of hand in a decent pot, at least that is how I saw him. He went to a lot of SD, but once people started calling him down a lot and 3-betting flops/PF etc. he became a little more selective pre-flop and would fold out of hands post-flop (but these were always small pots).

chezlaw · #8 03-16-2005, 01:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why on earth would you lead this turn? You get him to fold worse hands and pop you with better ones. Simple as that.

[/ QUOTE ]

His going to call down with a lot of worse 1 pair hands and draws so there's plenty of value in betting the turn.

I prefer check-calling as it seems highly unlikely that LAG will check behind given Naphand has been running bad and probably looks weak.

chez

naphand · #9 03-16-2005, 03:34 PM

I agree, I think the check/call line is better as it is almost a certainty he will bet if I check. I win the same when ahead and lose less when behind, he won't fold and, well, checking is a no.

As for QJ, I probably could have picked a better spot, like ANY hand when I am not SB [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] as I have position on him every hand except SB. But this guy was on the table for quite some time. He clearly can read what people play, and if all I do is raise Ax or big broadway that makes life for him very easy. If I show down some weaker hands, then I get him to cap PF and flop when I have him crushed. What I do not want happening is a thinking LAG taking my chips in quantity with his 2-pair/TP hands and folding out/calling down when I have a big hand. I think you need to be a bit LAG against them as well to extract the max. I do not think QJ is so hard to play post-flop in this spot. If I pair I go to SD. As for playing Ax for SD value, well yes, but not much value as LAG will certainly play overcards to a pair, which is not possible with Ace-TP, plus you lose a lot when you have Ax and he has AX. How do you know? You don't. Post-flop is never easy against these guys without something really decent, but I think playing like a normal HU contest post-flop you would not go far wrong.

disjunction · #10 03-16-2005, 01:04 PM

You have to decide what he's raising the turn with before you make the turn bet. If you think he's going to raise you with 55, go ahead and bet. If not, I'd probably check the turn and induce silliness on the river.