Wheres the rest of the pot ???

Nomar · #1 03-14-2005, 10:14 AM

30-60 hand vs winning thinking player (WTP)...

Folded to button (WTP) he raises, sb folds I three bet in BB with AK.

Flop comes AJ10, I bet he raises, I call, turn K, I check he checks, river blank I bet he calls MHIG.

Feels like I am leaving money on the table and boy do I hate to miss bets !!!!

Paluka · #2 03-14-2005, 02:58 PM

I think you should have 3 bet the flop and led the turn. He would play any ace this way, and even Q9 or 98. He might even raise that flop with KJ.

James282 · #3 03-14-2005, 03:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should have 3 bet the flop and led the turn. He would play any ace this way, and even Q9 or 98. He might even raise that flop with KJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed, I don't think this is a flop where you can slow down.
-James

Nomar · #4 03-14-2005, 03:16 PM

Hey James and Paluka,

Thanks for your replies, I respect both of your plays, which is why I am kind of surprised by your responses.

Would either of you raise an Ace in this spot ?

I really felt like this opponent was fastplaying a hand against me. I know for sure if I was playing either of you, and you 3 bet from the BB in this spot and then lead, I am not raising you with anything less than AK, probably not even AK. Isnt this the mile ahead or mile behind scenerio ??

If I 3 bet this flop I think he is most likely going to 4 bet or fold isnt he?

I posted this hand because I feel like is the type of scenerio when I am out of position with a good hand on a dangerous board, that I am not always using the optimal line.

Paluka · #5 03-14-2005, 03:29 PM

Well, there are only 2 ways to play this one. The way we recommened, and the way you played it. You seem to dislike both, but what do you expect being out of position against a good player.
And you are right, I probably wouldn't raise that flop with an ace. I'd be in cheap showdown mode.

DcifrThs · #6 03-14-2005, 03:27 PM

when i first read through the hand i thought he was in an ealier position. at that point i thought i would have played it the same way in that a turn bet COULD be raised by a worse hand looking to get a fold or a free showdown and a check will earn you ab et from a worse hand by betting the river. and the flop raise is scary, but then i looked again...

he was steal raising on the button...this vastly increases his range of hands.

and in those situations, i tend tend to play quite fast with top pair best kicker...no reason to slow down.

and keep in mind you are seeing a showdown here almost EVERY time...if he caps you can check call the turn or bet and call a raise and check call the river (if the turn blanks and river does same)

but i dont slowdown on that flop so quick...

-Barron

James282 · #7 03-14-2005, 03:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
when i first read through the hand i thought he was in an ealier position. at that point i thought i would have played it the same way in that a turn bet COULD be raised by a worse hand looking to get a fold or a free showdown and a check will earn you ab et from a worse hand by betting the river. and the flop raise is scary, but then i looked again...

he was steal raising on the button...this vastly increases his range of hands.

and in those situations, i tend tend to play quite fast with top pair best kicker...no reason to slow down.

and keep in mind you are seeing a showdown here almost EVERY time...if he caps you can check call the turn or bet and call a raise and check call the river (if the turn blanks and river does same)

but i dont slowdown on that flop so quick...

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Great response. This pretty much mirrors my thinking. A lot of players you perceive to be winning thinkers will raise an ace on the button, and raise one on the flop. I don't think a lot will get away from one even if you three bet. The only reason I would call the flop(and I would rarely call the flop) is to check-raise an appropriate turn.
-James

Philuva · #8 03-14-2005, 03:53 PM

Why are you playing 30-60? Was this online?

I don't think your line was bad. He could very well have had AJ or AT and you re-sucked out on him on the turn.

But since this was an open button raise, I think he could have a lot weaker A's than that and lots of pairs with gutshot so I like James and Barron's advice to play it faster.

Nomar · #9 03-14-2005, 04:59 PM

Hey Phil,

Yes this hand was played online...

I think that my problem with this hand is my warped way of thinking.

For example, if I put myself in his spot and you in my spot, if I raised you on that flop, AK would not be anygood. In a situation like this I tend to fastplay strong hands, where I think I can get my opponent to overplay his hand, and rope-a-dope with any marginal hands (in this spot all Aces as well as pair-gutshot hands).

Thanks for the response...I still owe you a dinner, I wish the Patriots had won by more !!! o'well !!

Philuva · #10 03-14-2005, 05:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
For example, if I put myself in his spot and you in my spot, if I raised you on that flop, AK would not be anygood. In a situation like this I tend to fastplay strong hands, where I think I can get my opponent to overplay his hand, and rope-a-dope with any marginal hands (in this spot all Aces as well as pair-gutshot hands).

[/ QUOTE ]

BS dude. I remember in the 1-2 game in December. You raise from LP with AQ. I 3-bet from the BB with QQ and you call. Flop was Axx. I bet and you raised. So if I did have AK, it would have been good.

Yeah, I don't think I am going to be able to collect on dinner until the WSOP. What is your travel schedule before then?