Another ugly hand that haunts me.

B Dids · #1 03-03-2005, 12:07 PM

AK in e-ish p. I raise, get 3 callers.

Flop comes TTx. I bet out (ick) call, call, raise. I call (??).

Turn is a J. Checked to the raiser, he bets, I call, the rest fold. (I don't have a great read, but I feel reasonably confident that my overcards are good outs here).

River K. I check, he bets, I call. (while I feel like my K might be good, I'm not wild about betting and getting 3-bet).

chief444 · #2 03-03-2005, 12:14 PM

If the x gives no straight or flush possibilities then I'm getting away from this very soon after I get two calls and a raise following the flop bet.

lil' · #3 03-03-2005, 12:25 PM

On the flop, the guy raised not only you (the pre-flop raiser), but several callers as well. Is there some information you didn't share, because you say you felt your overcards were good outs here, and it doesn't look that way to me.

crunchy1 · #4 03-03-2005, 01:04 PM

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I don't have a great read, but I feel reasonably confident that my overcards are good outs here

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(1) - when I don't have a great read and I'm only reasonably confident that I have outs - my cards go in the middle - not my chips...

(2) - what lil' said

jgorham · #5 03-03-2005, 01:35 PM

I think you played this fine - with no draws out on the board the CO could easily be raising a pocket pair below 10's for value and to see where he stood. When you pick up your straight draw on the turn to go with your overs its an easy call.

On the river, if you felt that you could fold to a raise I would lead. This is a type of play I would make against moderatelly aggressive opponents or less. Against more aggressive opponents check/call is the way to go.

crunchy1 · #6 03-03-2005, 01:44 PM

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with no draws out on the board the CO could easily be raising a pocket pair below 10's for value and to see where he stood.

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I think this is highly unlikely that a small pair < TT is raising to find out where he stands after the PF raiser leads and is called in 2 spots. Even bad players know where they stand with a small pair at this point and they don't raise - they call along trying to hit 1 of their 2 outs.

jgorham · #7 03-03-2005, 01:48 PM

Are you suggesting the only hand CO could hold is a 10?

crunchy1 · #8 03-03-2005, 02:15 PM

First off - what limit are we playing? I think B-Dids plays 2/4-3/6 so that's what I'm assuming.

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Are you suggesting the only hand CO could hold is a 10?

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Not at all. I'm suggesting that between the two flop callers and the raiser (we don't know that he's in the CO) it's likely that we're beat at this point. It's also likely that we're beat by trip T's as low-limit players love calling PF with trap hands like JT/QT/KT/AT.

I'm just hate the call here. We're only drawing to 6 outs (maybe 6.5-7 including a backdoor straight) that might not even be good if we hit. We're also not closing the action on the flop which means either of the two in-between-ers could 3-bet and that really puts Hero in a pickle.

Personally I think that this is an easy fold. Given some reads (which we don't have) I can see some justification in playing it past the flop - but if we're playing it past the flop IMO a 3-bet is in order to fold out the 2 in-between-ers, possibly gain a free river, and narrow the calling/capping opponent's hand ranges. Calling the flop raise is very weak-passive and that's not how I want to play.

LinusKS · #9 03-03-2005, 02:46 PM

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I'm just hate the call here. We're only drawing to 6 outs (maybe 6.5-7 including a backdoor straight) that might not even be good if we hit. We're also not closing the action on the flop which means either of the two in-between-ers could 3-bet and that really puts Hero in a pickle.

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It's true the Hero is probably beat, but at that point he's getting 13:1 on a call. Furthermore, the in-betweens will almost always call this as well (since they're getting 14:1 and 15:1, respectively), and very rarely raise.

If they do raise, there is a silver lining - that will almost always mean (at least) a T, and you can fold, potentially saving yourself BB's later on.

jgorham · #10 03-03-2005, 03:36 PM

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Calling the flop raise is very weak-passive and that's not how I want to play.

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That statement does not apply to this hand - it is not weak passive to call with a draw. Look at it this way - the pot is huge at this point. On the flop call the hero is getting 14 to 1 on his money. It would be correct here to call with 3 outs. Which is about what I would give him - 3.5 as straight is only possible with J and Q. There is a chance one of the callers will raise when the action gets back to them, but that chance is cancelled out by the 2 extra small bets that get thrown in the pot when they just call.

As far as 3betting to narrow the field, I doubt that is going to work, not to mention you don't have enough outs to make that profitable. Remember, you are beat by CO nearly 100% of the time here, and occasionally you will be drawing dead to him. Just call, see what the turn brings, and reevaluate at that point.

If the J didn't come, I think the turn would be an easy check/fold - but now hero has picked up some extra outs. Again, it isn't weak tight to call when you are drawing to the possible best hand, especially in a pot as large as this.