88 with Axx flop

wuarhg · #1 02-19-2005, 10:37 AM

Villain 31/20, 2.5/2/2.5. Is this calldown sane? I thought he very well might be pushing a flushdraw or even a seven.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 2 folds, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (5 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls... Intending to bet the river if checked to.

wuarhg · #2 02-19-2005, 04:01 PM

bump, standard?

Zele · #3 02-19-2005, 04:09 PM

Calldown with very vulnerable hand = bad.

You gotta 3bet the flop. If you 3bet the flop and he caps, I'd call and raise the turn if a not-so-scary card comes, folding to a 3bet and checking through the river unimproved. If he just calls the 3bet and checkraises the turn, then you can probably lay it down, unless you know this guy to a lot of turn CR semibluffs.

Nate tha' Great · #4 02-19-2005, 07:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Calldown with very vulnerable hand = bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Putting lots of bets in with the worst hand = worse.

His most likely hands are a flush draw, an ace, or something like a pair of sevens.

The flush draw might well contain overcards to your wired 8's, in fact something like 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is a favorite against you. Unfortunately, there is no way to get him to fold the flush draw. I suppose that by raising you could perhaps convince him to lay down on the river if he makes a pair but *doesn't* make a flush, but this requires putting an awful lot of bets in and won't always work anyway.

Obviously you don't want to put a lot of bets in against an ace.

If he has just a pair of sevens, he has five outs against you - actually slightly less since he may share your kicker (87) or might be subjcet to a redraw. He would barely be correct to call on the flop with this hand and would be incorrect to call on the turn, so you don't mind his putting the bets in himself.

Zele · #5 02-19-2005, 07:35 PM

Point taken.

Damn, guess I need a veil lift of my own.

wuarhg · #6 02-19-2005, 07:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Point taken.

Damn, guess I need a veil lift of my own.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I'm peeking through lots of veils here. Basically the conclusion is that I did pretty well in this hand, yea?

Zele · #7 02-19-2005, 07:53 PM

I for one trust Nate and Dane's advice more than my own. And the argument for your line makes good sense to me.

I'm still for 3-betting a LAG for whom an A high and flushy flop is a shot magnet. But against a "reasonable" player I'm no longer so sold.

Nate tha' Great · #8 02-19-2005, 07:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Point taken.

Damn, guess I need a veil lift of my own.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I'm peeking through lots of veils here. Basically the conclusion is that I did pretty well in this hand, yea?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think so.

If you reverse the hand a little bit and your hand is 77 and the board is A83, then you might consider raising at some point (probably the turn) to see if you can't push him off middle pair. Of course, you also might consider folding.

On this board, where your pocket point beats the pair on the board, there is not as much point to raising unless you're so convinced that the opponent would not play an ace this way that the raise is simply for value. You might also raise and fold to a cap against an extremely straightforward opponent who would 3-bet you with an ace or better but not with any hands that you're ahead of.

bunky9590 · #9 02-19-2005, 04:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
SB bets, Hero calls... Intending to bet the river if checked to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Id be happy to check that river back behind.

Is it standard? Dunno. I see that stats, but I'm not a huge stat guy. Does he check raise there with an ace more often than a draw? These are the things I like to know, instead of his VPIP. If I dont believe he has an ace, I may very well three bet his checkraise, bet the turn if checked to, and check the river behind. I like that line better than playing a guessing game on the flop.

Playing call down when the middle pair just paired up , an ace on the board, and a flush draw. Id rather stay in the lead on the flop, if I get checkraised on the turn, I'm gone.

Costs you less to do it this way then playing calldwon games.

wuarhg · #10 02-19-2005, 06:14 PM

You guys have a way better approach to this than I have. Do you always get aggressive when you have middle pair and the board is like this, then you fold to further aggression. Just curious about what goes on in your mind, draw heavy bord, vulnerable hand etc.

But yeah, my line was pretty awful, I can see that now. a veil has been lifted!