Noob hand question

DRD66 · #1 02-18-2005, 04:07 AM

I'm new to tourneys, maybe this should be on beginners forum. What do y'all think of this hand?
UB free SNG, hand 15
Table is loose pf, then tightens. Read on villian is no read - shown few hands, good player, assume capable of bullying/stealing

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (5 handed) converter

SB (t2230)
Hero (t2960)
UTG (t1075)
Villian (t3095)
Button (t640)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Villian calls t20, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero raises to t40, Villian calls t20, SB calls t20.
(small raise, trying to keep 'em in)
Flop: (t120) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t20, Villian calls t20, SB folds.
(again, small bet to keep 'em in. Got sucked out on a few hands ago and am admittedly gun-shy at this point)
Turn: (t160) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t50, Villian raises to t310,
(wtf? has he got 57?!? almost sure he would raised jj before now. maybe tryin to steal? arrrrrgh)
Hero calls t260.
River: (t780) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
(ok, he cant have a j not w/ that turn bet)
Hero bets t780, Villian calls t780.
(now i have no idea. strt? HELP!)
Final Pot: t2340

Should I have checked the river? Pretty sure I got the best hand. Anything I can think of that beats me should not have made it this far. Even if I think he does have it, do I bet for value and write off a bad beat as poor play on his part and figure to beat him if he keeps it up? Am I overthinking this?
Be gentle, I'm new here ;-)

Benholio · #2 02-18-2005, 04:32 AM

Welcome to the forum.

Pre-flop
First off, you hardly ever want to minimum raise or minimum bet. Pre-flop, make it at least 3-4 times the big blind, and maybe more if you have limpers or think you will get called for more. Don't ever worry about trying to 'keep them in' pre-flop. Here is an example to illustrate why:

Say players A, B, and C all limp in for 20, and you raise to 40. You are almost definately going to have 160 chips in the pot and 3 opponents.

A,B,C limp for 20, you raise to 80. Now, you will have one of the following:

You win 60 chips (rarely).
You go to the flop with 200 in the pot and 1 opponent.
You go to the flop with 260 in the pot and 2 opponents.
You go to the flop with 320 in the pot and 3 opponents.
You get raised, and get all-in against 1,2 or 3 opponents.

All of these scenarios except the first one are MUCH better than the min-raise. You want a combination of a) the most chips in the pot and b) the fewest opponents. Min-raising gives you the worst of both worlds.

The Flop
Once again a minimum bet is virtually never a good move. By betting 20 chips, you are giving your opponent 7-1 pot odds, making it cheap for him to try and catch up. You should pretty much never open up on the flop for less than 1/2 the pot, and most often you should bet 2/3-pot to slightly over the pot. This flop has 2 diamonds, and some funky straight draws possible. You want to bet the full size of the pot, at least, so that anyone trying to draw to these hands has to pay for it.

The Turn
Once again your opening bet is too small. Usually when someone calls the flop then raises the turn, it means a good hand. However, he could just be raising because your small bets represent weakness. Small leading bets like that will induce players to bluff sometimes. If you bet the pot on the flop, then fired on the turn again and got raised, I would definately be worried. As it stands, I'm not really sure what to think of his hand.

The River
Betting on the river is completely different than the flop or turn. There are two reasons to bet on the river. 1) To get worse hands to give you more chips. 2) To get better hands to fold. In low buy-in games, you pretty much only want to bet for reason #1. By betting so much on the river, you make it hard for any hand below yours to call you. Most hands that are going to call this bet are ones that are beating you. I would check on the river, and then really be kind of lost when he bets. This river would be a lot easier to play with larger bets on the flop and turn giving us a better idea of what he has.

curtains · #3 02-18-2005, 04:34 AM

First its VERY important to learn that you shouldnt raise small preflop early in tournaments just because you have AA or KK.

DRD66 · #4 02-18-2005, 12:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Say players A, B, and C all limp in for 20, and you raise to 40. You are almost definately going to have 160 chips in the pot and 3 opponents.

A,B,C limp for 20, you raise to 80. Now, you will have one of the following:

You win 60 chips (rarely).
You go to the flop with 200 in the pot and 1 opponent.
You go to the flop with 260 in the pot and 2 opponents.
You go to the flop with 320 in the pot and 3 opponents.
You get raised, and get all-in against 1,2 or 3 opponents.

All of these scenarios except the first one are MUCH better than the min-raise. You want a combination of a) the most chips in the pot and b) the fewest opponents. Min-raising gives you the worst of both worlds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Crap, I feel like an idiot.
Remember reading this concept in TOP, now it makes sense. Read straight through TOP and helped a lot. Now going to go through chapter by chapter and try to apply each before moving to the next. Maybe I should read SSHE before I do this?

Lots of good info in your post (esp. for 3:30a!), thanks very much!

Benholio · #5 02-18-2005, 01:25 PM

No need to feel like an idiot. You are already ahead of 95% of your opposition by actively trying to improve your game.

As far as reading books, you will gain some good general poker theory by reading the 2plus2 books, but not a lot of SnG specific strategy. SSHE, for example, will be pretty useless for SnG, or any kind of no-limit.

A good place to start would be Aleo Magus' guide to beating the $10+1, which is your basic sit-n-go starting kit developed by one of our frequent posters here.

DeeStay · #6 02-21-2005, 05:39 AM

I applaud your attempts to improve. The stark reality of UB freerolls is that the skill level is quite lacking, especially in the earlier rounds. Many players are just hopping into all-in crapshoots attempting to accrue as many chips as possible early. They have nothing invested in the tournament, and the hand ranges for all-in calls are dramatically lessened.

You call here, but realize that is based upon the type of tournament you are in. Don't worry-- their Axs will draw out on you enough times to make you move to SNG's (or at least $5 tourneys).

DeeStay

Isura · #7 02-21-2005, 12:14 PM

Maybe try out the small buy-in ($1,$2,$3) MTT's at Stars. They will help your game more than freerolls, and the prize pool should motivate you to play more correctly the whole time.

Costanza · #8 02-18-2005, 01:30 PM

I think SSHE is a great book and certainly wouldn't discourage you from reading it, especially if you're planning on playing small stakes limit hold 'em. I'd be careful, however, about applying too much of it to a no-limit game, especially an SnG. Pushing small edges is fine in a limit game but will get you killed in an SnG tournament.

AtticusFinch · #9 02-18-2005, 03:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Remember reading this concept in TOP, now it makes sense. Read straight through TOP and helped a lot. Now going to go through chapter by chapter and try to apply each before moving to the next. Maybe I should read SSHE before I do this?

[/ QUOTE ]

TOP is a great book, but it doesn't cover no-limit particularly well. You really need to read Harrington on Hold'em. Lots of great info in there on when to bet, how much, and why. Plus it's a great read.

Welcome to the board.

Jason Strasser · #10 02-18-2005, 04:46 AM

Read a book.