Worst turn card ever

Ghazban · #1 02-17-2005, 10:25 AM

Live 1/2 game, fairly tough players all sitting directly to my left [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] I am dealt QQ in MP with ~$130 in my stack. All others in the hand have me covered. Folded to me, I make it $8 to go and get called by 2 people behind me and the BB.

Flop: Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($33)

Checked to me, I bet $20 and villain on button is the only caller.

Turn: Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($73)

Great, the spades got there, as did the T9 and AT straight draws (all possible holdings for villain).

Your move?

MyMindIsGoing · #2 02-17-2005, 10:32 AM

Check and see what price you get for drawing to full house on the river. That is what I would do anyways.

Ghazban · #3 02-17-2005, 10:43 AM

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Check and see what price you get for drawing to full house on the river. That is what I would do anyways.

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I understand what you're saying but it seems that, by following this sort of thinking regularly, you will get pushed out of a lot of pots any time a scare card hits.

jhall23 · #4 02-17-2005, 11:02 AM

Yeah that definetly sucks with the stacks sizes. I assume that since you were MP and the tough players are to your left that the button was one of these tough players right?

The cut off assuming you can get all-in if you boat up is calling about $40 dollar bet. Seems unlikely a tough opponent is going to ever give it to you that cheap if you check. I think this situation really depends alot on how you and your opponent know each other. Any relevant info besides the opponent is tough?

Anyway I would have bet probably more like 25-30 on the flop, probably closer to 30 with 2 others in the pot, but that might not have changed the situation too much. Actually with a tough opponent to my left I might have even overbet the pot some to try and represent AA-KK not wanting to let in cheap draws hoping for a re-raise.

MyMindIsGoing · #5 02-17-2005, 10:33 AM

BTW I would bet more on flop also.

Tilt · #6 02-17-2005, 10:55 AM

Hes a good player, right? He doesnt have AT, or even KT for that matter. You can't rule out by any means that he is calling with a flush draw, but by and by good players flat call you with made hands. I put him on two pair or a weaker set.

So, IMO there are so many possible hands that you are ahead of that I would not let that card phase you too much. You should play this as though you are ahead...let him be afraid of it. Make it 70 and call him down if he pushes. If you lose this hand I think its just the price of poker.

Ghazban · #7 02-17-2005, 11:01 AM

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Hes a good player, right? He doesnt have AT, or even KT for that matter. You can't rule out by any means that he is calling with a flush draw, but by and by good players flat call you with made hands. I put him on two pair or a weaker set.

So, IMO there are so many possible hands that you are ahead of that I would not let that card phase you too much. You should play this as though you are ahead...let him be afraid of it. Make it 70 and call him down if he pushes. If you lose this hand I think its just the price of poker.

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That was essentially my thinking at the time. I felt two pair was a very likely holding for him here (KJs perhaps) or even just a pair with the naked A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I bet half my stack (~55 I think) and then called when he pushed with T9s. I failed to fill up on the river and he took it down. I seem to be losing in these sorts of situations a fair amount recently and I'm trying to figure out if I've been unlucky or if I'm playing poorly (or some combination of the two).

Tilt · #8 02-17-2005, 11:09 AM

A fishy villain, huh? You needed a bigger flop bet.

Some thoughts about this situation....and other you might be getting into. Your preflop raise here needs to buy you position. It needs to be larger IMO. You don't want these good players to have odds to stack you. You want the raise to be large enough that you KNOW these guys have a high PP or AK if they call.

You can get away with varying your preflop raises, even against good observant players, if you don't vary it by your holding but rather by your position. Push the sharks behind you out of the pot when you get a hand. If you can't outplay them postflop don't worry about keeping them in the hand.

Its also entirely possible that this whole situation - goo players to your left - is -EV. I'd offer the guy to their left some money for his seat.

Ghazban · #9 02-17-2005, 11:17 AM

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Its also entirely possible that this whole situation - good players to your left - is -EV.

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This is absolutely 100% true. However, I play this game to get better not to make money. I could sit at home and play online or drive to Foxwoods if money was the only object. One reason I play this game is because it gives me the opportunity to play against some pretty good players without having to play at particularly high stakes. From a learning standpoint, I'm OK with taking my lumps out of position vs. good players just to get the experience and to improve my own game.

With respect to villain, he's somewhat loose preflop but plays very well postflop and is known to be extremely aggressive both with draws, made hands, and pure bluffs. I wasn't at all surprised to see that he was playing T9s for a raise here and I suspect he'd've played it for a bigger raise had the other caller come in in front of him, too. The other caller (the one between me and villain) is also fairly loose preflop but plays well postflop. He could've had almost any two.

jhall23 · #10 02-17-2005, 11:30 AM

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With respect to villain, he's somewhat loose preflop but plays very well postflop and is known to be extremely aggressive both with draws, made hands, and pure bluffs. I wasn't at all surprised to see that he was playing T9s for a raise here and I suspect he'd've played it for a bigger raise had the other caller come in in front of him, too. The other caller (the one between me and villain) is also fairly loose preflop but plays well postflop. He could've had almost any two.

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If villian plays draws aggressively I like the idea of overbetting the flop slightly even more. You have 2 callers so a bigger bet is in order than HU and you know last to act plays draws agressively. I assume that it would be within his moves to semi-bluff push with a sweet draw. Maybe by overbetting you can get him to make this move and get all the money in. Since you are ahead of the straight-flush draws that would be great. What do you think?