Damn min-raises and *%& me for not calling them…

[FishInAPhoneBooth]

I realize this may be trivial but I fold hands like this a lot, which means if this is a mistake I am routinely missing small opportunities to pick up a few hundred chips.

Pokerroom 15K Guaranteed $20+2
Hero on the button with 7D,6D and $1,500 in chips [First Hand]

ANTES/BLINDS
SB posts blind ($10), BB posts blind ($20).

PRE-FLOP
All Fold, CO calls $20, Hero calls $20, SB calls $10, BB checks.

FLOP [board cards 6C,AS,QC ]
SB bets $20, BB calls $20, CO calls $20, Hero folds.

TURN [board cards 6C,AS,QC,2H ]
SB bets $40, BB calls $40, CO calls $40.

RIVER [board cards 6C,AS,QC,2H,6H ]
SB checks, BB checks, CO checks.


Am I just second guessing myself because of a six on the river? My six sure felt good but with a flush draw, two overs, no reads, blah, blah, blah, I folded.

[webiggy]

I routinely call min raises early in the tournament. The bets are very small relative to stack size and your implied odds are huge if you hit your hand.

Now having said that, hitting bottom button is not the flop you want, so don't feel bad for folding here. I wouldn't necessarily advocate a chase here, particularly if you have to call two flop bets cold as you could be reraised behind you. The fact that you hit your third 6 on the river is unfortunate, but not life shattering.

I think that you made the right play here. Besides, sometimes those trips with weak kickers can get you in trouble.

[FishInAPhoneBooth]

I don't really feel bad about folding to this particular min bet. Its just that the six on the river combined with no one having a hand on the end made me wonder how much I am giving up by routinely folding in situations similar to this one.

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't necessarily advocate a chase here, particularly if you have to call two flop bets cold as you could be reraised behind you.

[/ QUOTE ]
He can't be re-raised. His call would close the action.

[Lloyd]

At this stage, it's a simple odds question. On the flop, there is 140 in the pot and it costs you 20 to call. You're getting 7 to 1 odds and will close out the action so you don't have to worry about getting raised. You have 5 outs, all of which are probably good. I doubt someone has 66, AA, QQ, or AQ (although it's the most likely of the monster hands) based on how it's been played. With 5 outs you're about an 8.3 to 1 dog. That's not quite good enough to call based on pot odds alone but it's probably okay with implied odds.

Had you called the flop and the turn played the same way, there would be 280 in the pot and it would cost you 40 to call, again 7 to 1 odds which is probably good enough to call with.

This hand was played very weakly by everyone involved. Nobody had anything strong otherwise they'd be raising and protecting their hand against a straight and flush draw. You might have been able to win the pot by making a raise. You don't necessarily have to have the nuts to have the best hand or to win the hand.

Every decision you make should at least take odds into consideration as one of the key factors.

[Cleveland Guy]

I think your play is fine here for a couple of reason.

When you limped with this hand from the button - were you really looking for bottom pair with 2 face cards on the board?

I'm thinking you wanted at least 2 pair, a 4 flush or 4 straight. All reasonable reasons to limp with a mid suited connector on the button. Since you got none of them, a fold is fine.

If you called the flop- are you now calling the turn still chasing? I think in general you can get into a lot of trouble this way - and slowly bleed chips.

If it was a bit into the tournament and you had about 2,500 when the avg stack was still at 1500 I would think it's okay.

If you hit your 7 - your never sure if bottom to pair is good - so you can't bet it hard, and if you hit your 6 will you get paid off enough to overcome the implied odds?


The other factor why I fold - is this is the FIRST HAND. You have 0 reads on any players - and they have no reads on you. I don't want my first read to be that of someone chasing hands, and possible chasing weak hands. You also have no idea where the maniac is at the table - or who is likely to play Q6 offsuit and stick with it no matter what cause he got a piece of the board.

I think there are times to chase a hand like this - but not this time.

[Lloyd]

I don't completely disagree with you (Cleveland Guy). I still would have played the hand because the odds were so good but it is clearly a slightly +EV at best because it will be tough to get paid off due to weakness by all players. But it wouldn't take much in terms of implied odds to make calling correct.

Like I said, if you want to win this pot it's not too difficult. Just make a real raise and I'm sure everyone would fold. Nobody really wanted this pot as confirmed by check, check, check on the river.

[Absolution]

Ah the minraisers. Minraising usually means they have something weak, but sometimes means they have a great hand and would like to give everybody a chance to draw out on them. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] If they want to give me drawing odds I'll take it.

[MonkeeMan]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
I'm looking, but still don't see any raises of any type here.

If your talking about the min bet on the flop, you've got bottom pair, bad kicker, no draws, but position. Easy fold IMO.

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
I'm looking, but still don't see any raises of any type here.

If your talking about the min bet on the flop, you've got bottom pair, bad kicker, no draws, but position. Easy fold IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, he's talking about a mini-bet, not a mini-raise.

"Easy fold"? Getting 7 to 1 odds and everyone showing weakness? I guarantee you that if he makes a strong raise on the flop he wins the pot. And at worst it's a marginal fold.