Q-Js or 8-8

[andyfox]

It looks like's it's going to be a 5-way pot for 4 bets (capped) pre-flop. Which hand would you rather have: Q-Js or 8-8? Do position or post-flop skill or aggressiveness (or lack thereof) in your opponents (or other factors) affect your choice?

[Nate tha' Great]

88.

I don't think my cards are going to be very live in the QJs hand, assuming my opponents are something resembling reasonable. I'd actually rather have 76s in this spot than QJs.

[SA125]

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I'd actually rather have 76s in this spot than QJs.

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Now that's stirring the pot. Interesting.

[Nate tha' Great]

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I'd actually rather have 76s in this spot than QJs.

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Now that's stirring the pot. Interesting.

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Just give your opponents a range of plausible hands and plug it into PokerStove. QJs is a disaster here. I'm disappointed that Ray disagrees with me because it all has to do with the liveness of your cards. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Okay, I'll do it myself.

Opponent #1: Fairly loose UTG raiser:

AA-77, AKs-A9s, KQs-KJs, QJs, AKo-AJo, KQo

Opponent #2: Aggressive 3-bettor:

AA-99, AKs-AJs, KQs, AKo-AQo

Opponent #3: TAG capper:

AA-JJ, AKs, AKo

Opponent #4: Degenerate cold-caller:

AA-55, AKs-A8s, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-AQo, T9s ... 65s

Against that range of hands, we get the following equities, hot-and-cold:

QJs: 14.5%
88: 16.8%
76s: 18.8%
ATs: 13.5%

[surfdoc]

Interesting. Thanks Nate.

Does that factor in the chance that your 78s is the same suit as the QJs or do you specifically have to plug in the suit when running it?

[Ray Zee]

yea, nate you contrived a scenario where it looks like 88 is better if all hands go to the river.
you are also making the ground rules that the qj and 88 never were one of the raisers either, and each player have at least a legit hand. even then only 4 points lead by 88.
and it still isnt a prettier hand than qjs.

[Michael Davis]

I just downloaded PokerStove and it rules.

Anyways, I ran the following simulation, which I think will shed some light on the issue at hand. I gave all players the hand ranges of raising hands that I generally assume to be the case when I am at the table:

Player 1: AKs, AKo
Player 2: AKs, AKo
Player 3: AKs, AKo
Player 4: AKs, AKo

In this scenario, 88 had 83% equity and QJs had 51.8. But the equity of QJs is especially higher because you may be able to occasionally steal when the flop comes T97 or something by just pounding. Not enough to make up 30%, though.

Clearly, both of these hands are excellent holdings in this situation.

-Michael

[AceHigh]

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I'd actually rather have 76s in this spot than QJs.

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What if the flop is T-9-8?

My point is the QJ is pretty much always drawing to the nut str8 while 76 might not be drawing live on say a 9-8-Q board.

[obi---one]

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88.

I don't think my cards are going to be very live in the QJs hand, assuming my opponents are something resembling reasonable. I'd actually rather have 76s in this spot than QJs.

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I'd rather have 76s than qjs as well. And I would take any pp over qjs.

[Gabe]

Why didn't you add a poll to your post. There may still be time. maybe two polls: QJs vs 88, QJs in posistion vs 88 out of position. Hurry up! I don't think you have much time.