bad turn play?

tommo · #1 02-05-2005, 05:26 PM

Hey this hand was bothering me. 1$ BB 100$ buy in 6 handed I have the other two players covered and get KK UTG.

get 3 callers preflop and then I raised to 7$. Two of the players (in middle position) call.

flop comes 555. I bet 15$ and get one caller. Turn comes with another 5 at which point I curse at betting so little on the flop. I bet 10$ and he raises me all in (another 15$)

I call. Should I have folded? This is my 3rd hand at the table.

tree_stump · #2 02-05-2005, 06:49 PM

With quads on board, I gotta believe you're beat by ace high. I'd fold to the raise - to be honest, I probably wouldn't have bet the flop... Live to fight another day.

Autocratic · #3 02-05-2005, 07:18 PM

Easy fold.

tommo · #4 02-05-2005, 07:44 PM

3 5s down and you have KK and you don't be the flop?! with a 7BB raise pf there is really only 8 hands that could really beat you, 45s 56s, not to mention that AA probably would have raised my pf raise, or just raised str8 out...I almost definitely have by far the favorite hand on that flop, the only reason I see for not betting is if you want to trap...but giving hands that might give you action chance to improve is too dangerous (not really from the extra 5, but from the possible0 aces out there). I don't believe somebody is just going to have 45o or 56o. it seemed possible (though unlikely that he was trying to steal the pot) but seeing how the pot was pretty large alright I made a crying call

Sephus · #5 02-05-2005, 07:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3 5s down and you have KK and you don't be the flop?! with a 7BB raise pf there is really only 8 hands that could really beat you, 45s 56s, not to mention that AA probably would have raised my pf raise, or just raised str8 out...I almost definitely have by far the favorite hand on that flop, the only reason I see for not betting is if you want to trap...but giving hands that might give you action chance to improve is too dangerous (not really from the extra 5, but from the possible0 aces out there). I don't believe somebody is just going to have 45o or 56o. it seemed possible (though unlikely that he was trying to steal the pot) but seeing how the pot was pretty large alright I made a crying call

[/ QUOTE ]

the crying call is too much so.

tree_stump · #6 02-05-2005, 11:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3 5s down and you have KK and you don't be the flop?! with a 7BB raise pf there is really only 8 hands that could really beat you, 45s 56s, not to mention that AA probably would have raised my pf raise, or just raised str8 out...I almost definitely have by far the favorite hand on that flop

[/ QUOTE ]

There are actually more hands that can beat me than I can count at this point. So I don't bet the flop. I'll bet the turn if a safe card comes. With a PFR, any card 10+ on the turn (except the king, of course) destroys my hand, and I'll have to fold to a bet. A 5 on the turn destroys my hand, and I'll have to fold. You may have the best hand at the time, but there's too much trouble out there to make this hand worth risking more money on. Like I said, live to fight another day.

I'm not at all worried about quads - no one has it, and if they do, good for them.

tommo · #7 02-06-2005, 12:05 AM

alright. I agree, the call when the 5 on the turn comes down is too much. I guess thats why I posted. But if we assume (like tree stump did) that nobody has made quads then how can you not bet this flop? Like I said before, the only reason I see for not betting it is to trap, but I think thats a bad play too. Basically what tree stump is saying is that the only hand thats beating him on the flop is AA, but that he's scared somebody will fill up with an card 10+.
As I see it there's only 4 cards to be scared of, the aces and the 5.

Does anybody agree with me here? Do most of you really check this flop?

TheWorstPlayer · #8 02-06-2005, 12:14 AM

I think the advice to not bet this flop is ridiculous. You have the second nuts, aside from quads which are exceedingly unlikely. Absolutely bet that flop. Bet the full pot. You'll get called by anyone with a pocket pair, most likely. And yes, fold to the raise. And I would have only bet $5 on the turn. Think about how it looks to your opponent. There are quads on the board and the preflop raiser is betting into me. Am I going to raise him with 67s? Or JJ? Any ace is the nuts, and most likely the preflop raiser has one. I am not even going to call $5 without an ace. So if you had just bet a little bit, if he folds you are cool, if he raises you are gone. The nuts in this hand is any ace and the river cannot possibly change that. So if your opponent is willing to call a bet when you very likely have the stone cold nuts, then he must have them too. Unfortunately, you don't actually have them.

On a side note, if it makes you feel any better, I once had a hand where I called a raise with 22. The flop came 552. I was stoked. I checked, PFR bet, I raised, he called. Turn came a 5. I was like "crap, hope he doesn't have an overpair." I bet, he called. River came a 5. Now I have the absolutely nuts worst possible hand. I mucked out of turn.

tree_stump · #9 02-06-2005, 04:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
As I see it there's only 4 cards to be scared of, the aces and the 5.

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You're absolutely correct... I wasn't reading it right, and forgot to realize that 5s full of 10s doesn't beat you.

I tend to stay away from this type of hand... not sure why. By my logic (that quads aren't out there), three cards beat you. So yes, betting the flop is definitely the EP+ move...

I think the reason I stay away from these hands is that, when you're winning, you win a minimal amount. When you're behind, you tend to lose quite a bit more. So, as a rule, I tend to try not to invest too much money in these hands... Maybe that's a leak in my game.

pho75 · #10 02-06-2005, 10:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
With a PFR, any card 10+ on the turn (except the king, of course) destroys my hand

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You could say that about almost any flop. It's 22-1 against him making a set on the turn. That would be the second-to-the last thing on my mind. The last thing on my mind would be worring about him having a 5.

I just thought of this and looked it up:

In Dan Harrington's new book he analyzes different flops for some typical hands. Hand #1 is AA and the flop example is 333. This is what he says.

"This (and a few hads like it) is your best possible flop. You've made the nut fullhouse, but more importantly, your opponent may may have made a weaker full house. Note that you don't need to slowplay this hand. Just take the lead in the betting and wait for him to come after you."