Omaha 8 - how much do I suck?

[BadBatsuMaru]

So I decided to take a little break from the Hold 'Em. The first time I ever played Omaha was in a home game last week, and I thought maybe I'd give it a shot online. I was at the library and read the Omaha chapter in Phil Hellmuth's book Play Poker Like the Pros (a horrible book which teaches very little except how enormous Phil's ego is) and came home and jumped right into 2-tabling Omaha 8.


Party Poker (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
MP1 folds, CO folds, Button folds.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
.

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
.
BB bets [$1].
Hero calls [$1].
BB shows [ 6d, Jc, 7s, 4h ] a full house, Jacks full of sixes.
Hero shows [ Kh, 6h, Ah, 2h ] Royal Flush.
Hero wins $9.75 from the main pot with Royal Flush.
There was no qualifying low hand.


Anyway, I guess I found another thing the converter doesn't like, but I played the hand really badly. First I was thinking I've got a back-door straight, back-door flush, a pair, two overcards, and a back-door nut low, so I really don't want to fold. On the turn I improve, so I'm still thinking I've got 12 outs to a straight or flush and two sixes that might win it for me, so I call again. Then on the river I make the flush, but I'm thinking that if I raise on that board he might not call unless he has the boat, then he'd re-raise...

I wasn't thinking that holding 4 hearts cuts 2 of my flush outs, and of course I totally missed the fact that the flush I hit was the royal...

So, I guess I need to put a little more thought into this if I'm going to play Omaha now and then, but what's the recommended reading on it?

Phil's book has a chart of hands that I copied:


Premium Hands

1. A-A-2-3
2. A-A-2-x
3. A-A-3-x
4. A-2-3-4
5. A-2-3-x
6. A-2-K-K, A-2-Q-Q
7. A-3-4-5
8. A-A-4-5, A-A-x-x
9. A-2-Q-K, A-2-K-J, A-2-x-x
10. A-3-K-K

Strong hands

11. A-3-4-x
12. 2-3-4-5
13. J-Q-K-A
14. T-J-Q-K
15. J-Q-K-K
16. 9-T-J-Q
17. 2-3-4-x
18. Any four cards between T and A

That's about all I've been going by, limping almost every time except when I'm behind several callers with a really good hand.

[Beavis68]

wow, that is pretty bad, at least the river, but as ed miller says, at least it won't happen very often.

I folded a weak flush for one bet in a 24BB pot once, it was the nuts. I am still pisses about that ever time I look at my account balance.

And actually, I really liked Phil NL and stud omaha sections. I didn't get the ego thing, I thought it was an enjoyable read, and his O8 section is one of the best for beginners.

[BadBatsuMaru]

Yeah, the O8 section seemed pretty useful, but it's pretty brief and doesn't really say much of anything about post-flop play. All the stuff on HE seemed pretty out there. I can understand how his "top 10 hands" approach might work in reasonable limit games, but he suggests it as a beginning strategy -- as though capping with 77 pre-flop in a micro is a good idea but AJs is a throw-away. As I looked in the different sections, almost every one was just going on and on about random tournaments he won, and the internet section is totally useless -- it just talks about what a genius entrepeneur he is and really doesn't say anything useful. I'm not expecting everybody to write books as good as SSH or TOP, but Hellmuth sounded childish to me.

Anyway, what's out there as far as specific O8 material? I find myself constnatly wondering really basic things. Is it usually stupid to stay in with a flush draw in a multi-way pot if you don't have the A? Obviously, compared to HE, there is a much larger chance of someone having a boat whenever the board pairs. What about drawing to a low in a multi-way pot? If I have A3 and the flop is 4-8-K should I just assume someone has an A2 if there are several people in the pot?

My biggest questions involve the differences associated with having 40 cards in people's hands instead of 20.

[Matt Ruff]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, what's out there as far as specific O8 material?

[/ QUOTE ]

The chapter in Super System 2 is a good short overview. I also like Mike Cappelletti's "How to Win at Omaha High-Low Poker" and Krieger and Tenner's "Winning Omaha/8 Poker." Ray Zee's "High Low Split Poker..." gets raves, of course, but I've never bothered picking it up since I gather it's aimed at higher limits than I play. And then there's Ken Warren's "Winner's Guide to Omaha Poker," which by most accounts is pretty awful.

-- M. Ruff

[BadBatsuMaru]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, what's out there as far as specific O8 material?

[/ QUOTE ]

The chapter in Super System 2 is a good short overview. I also like Mike Cappelletti's "How to Win at Omaha High-Low Poker" and Krieger and Tenner's "Winning Omaha/8 Poker." Ray Zee's "High Low Split Poker..." gets raves, of course, but I've never bothered picking it up since I gather it's aimed at higher limits than I play. And then there's Ken Warren's "Winner's Guide to Omaha Poker," which by most accounts is pretty awful.

-- M. Ruff

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I'm getting the hang of it pretty quickly... The Mike Cappelletti book is only $14 at Amazon, so I'll definitely have to get that. I don't know anything about Ray Zee, but I certainly have a lot of respect for what 2+2 puts out.

I've read both SSH and TOP a couple times, and even understood them pretty well the second time. I've played tons of HE (40,000 hands since I installed PT last year). I'm certainly no expert, but I think I can jump right into somewhat advanced material.

I do think it would be quite awhile before I delved into anything higher than 3/6 Omaha, so it sounds like you're saying Cappelletti is the way to go, although it sure has some harsh reviews on Amazon.

Are you saying the Krieger/Tenner book is pretty solid? I read Krieger's beginner book for HE a few years ago and didn't find it very useful, even as a beginner, and I heard his online poker book is just absurdly infantile.

[Matt Ruff]

Also, any post by Buzz is worth reading.

-- M. Ruff

[Steve-o]

The best book for a beginner is Tenner/Kriegers Winning Omaha 8

and also visiting Steve Badgers website is a good idea, playwinningpoker.com.

Once you have the basics down I highly recommend Mike Cappelletti's book. This teaches you as Beavis would say, to know when the non-nuts is good and when it isn't.

[BadBatsuMaru]

Also, about the Cappelletti book ... is there a new edition and an old one? I noticed there are two different covers. One is at Amazon and B&amp;N, and it has yellow letters and says, "The Foremost Authority on Omaha High-Low Poker Shows How to Play and Win!"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...169121-7776903

The other cover is on Cardoza's website and actually on the shelf at Barnes &amp; Noble, and it has white letters and says, "A Strategy Guide to the Hottest New Poker Game: Omaha High-Low!"

http://www.cardozapub.com/
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...uct_id=2224695

Now, to me it looks like the one calling Omaha a hot new game would be the older edition, but I'm confused as that is actually the picture on Cardoza's site.

[Moneyline]

FWIW, I've perused Hellmuth's 08 chapter and I thought it was pretty good. IMO no complete Omaha book has been written. I think the best material is the chapter in Super System 2. You should also probably check out Ray Zee's book, as it has some helpful nuggets (especially regarding tight games). There are other niche materials that you'll want to check out if you get really serious. They are: www.playwinningpoker.com for very loose games, Omaha High Low- Play To Win With the Odds by Bill Boston for hand selection in tight games, and Cappelletti's book (which seems to have both good and bad inforation). Digging around the 2+2 archives will also help you, especially with the many common post-flop dilemmas you'll face that aren't addressed in the books.

As far as the hand goes...

Your post is a little hard to read because of the missing information, see if you can edit it in.

Pre fop: It looks like you called pre-flop, which I think is a good decision. I'd just call if it was raised behind me.

Flop: This flop was a real airball, you totally missed it. I would fold here.

Turn: I'd bet this if no one else had shown interest, but if someone else is betting it's IMO best to muck.

River: Don't you love poker sometimes [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Beavis68]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I've perused Hellmuth's 08 chapter and I thought it was pretty good. IMO no complete Omaha book has been written. I think the best material is the chapter in Super System 2. You should also probably check out Ray Zee's book, as it has some helpful nuggets (especially regarding tight games). There are other niche materials that you'll want to check out if you get really serious. They are: www.playwinningpoker.com for very loose games, Omaha High Low- Play To Win With the Odds by Bill Boston for hand selection in tight games, and Cappelletti's book (which seems to have both good and bad inforation). Digging around the 2+2 archives will also help you, especially with the many common post-flop dilemmas you'll face that aren't addressed in the books.

As far as the hand goes...

Your post is a little hard to read because of the missing information, see if you can edit it in.

Pre fop: It looks like you called pre-flop, which I think is a good decision. I'd just call if it was raised behind me.

Flop: This flop was a real airball, you totally missed it. I would fold here.

Turn: I'd bet this if no one else had shown interest, but if someone else is betting it's IMO best to muck.

River: Don't you love poker sometimes [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you call flopping trips "totally missing"?