Paradise 25$ NL hand

[A_PLUS]

Table is pretty much the perfect set up for a TAG player. Too many people call raises pre-flop, but only continue with top pair, and take it too far with that.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) converter

UTG ($15.65)
UTG+1 ($14.75)
MP1 ($14.50)
MP2 ($22.93)
CO ($23.70)
Button ($26.45)
SB ($21.70)
Hero ($28.40)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6c, 5c. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, MP1 calls $0.25, MP2 raises to $1, CO calls $1, 1 fold, SB (poster) calls $0.90, Hero calls $0.75, UTG+1 calls $0.75, MP1 calls $0.75.

Flop: ($6) 7c, 4c, Js (6 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 raises to $8


What do you think the right play is here.
My thinking was AJ, didnt want to give anyone a cheap draw.
The only hands that really put me in trouble are two over clubs, based on previous play, I really only thought KJ or AJ were possible. Even in these cases, I am only a 2-1 dog.
So, with a push, the pot is paying me 31/17 so I push.

Is this too aggressive against weak oponents? In a standard game, I push every time, but is the risk/reward ratio right against weak players, when I know I will be presented with much easier decisions later?

[soah]

If people will pay off with their whole stack when obvious draws hit then just check/call the flop.

[steaknshake925]

You have a monster draw. Even if he has AJ or even aces you're a slight favorite to win. When he raised, pushing was definitly the correct move. You want to get as much money in on the flop as possible.

Although, I'm not sure I like you betting out on the flop. The reason is if you just get called and blank comes on the turn, then youre in a tough spot. A good move here is to checkraise all-in on the flop.

Also, soah's line is good too, and it's actually one that I usually take against weak opponents who way underbet the pot and then pay off their stacks when I hit. So if villain in the hand is weak like that, then check-calling is good too.

[FUpaymee]

BB on the 25 NL tables on Paradise is .25 and SB is .10 [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[A_PLUS]

Yeah, i dont know why it said that? Maybe I copied something wrong. Only the heading is wrong, rest of numbers are correct.

Thanks for the input, I never really thought about the check raise on the flop, 2 reasons.
First, the table was overly tight post flop, I thought a 3$ bet stood a pretty good chance of winning the pot uncontested. Second, I knew that no one would put me on a draw, giving me more ammo if an overcard fell on the turn or river to fire my second bullet.

Earlier in the session, I led out on the flop with AKs, when I flopped a 4 flush, and had someone lay down a pair of Jacks when a Qh fell on the turn. So it was that type of table.

I do think that the check-raise push is a good play here though.

[Tilt]

No I disagree with a c/r. I think you disguise your hand best by betting out. I think the way you played it is fine IMO. You have a decent pot built when you push, but you still have fold equity, and you are probably the statistical favorite if he does call. Even if he calls and you lose your table image will be great for your TAG style. 25NL players don't understand that pushing with the double draw is not maniacal.

[A_PLUS]

The more I think about it, the more I agree that the CR push may not be the best move here. It is reducing the hand to the lowest common denominator, and is definitely EV, but not maximum EV.

Here is why (IMO)
You either win a decent pot at the outset, or give yourself one way to win a very large pot. Definitely profitable, but doesn't take advantage of the fact that you are a better player than your opponent.

By betting out, you add a ton of layers to the hand. Now your skill can come into play.
If the straight hits, you most likely still getting plenty of action.

You can check a made flush hoping to induce a bluff.

You can bluff into any overcard, hoping to get your oponent to lay down a pair of jacks. Or bluff into a blank, as many oponents can not withstand the second bullet with JT or JQ.

If they play back into your raise, you have to push, you know they are committed and you might as well get the money in now.

[SeattleJake]

I know I still have a lot to learn...

I like $6 on the flop better, but the $3 is ok too. After the re-raise though, you're getting 12-5 payoff on a call (for a 20-5 chance), and getting 24-17 payoff on the all-in(for a 49-17 chance). I don't like either of those options.

[A_PLUS]

[ QUOTE ]
After the re-raise though, you're getting 12-5 payoff on a call (for a 20-5 chance)

[/ QUOTE ]

preflop 6$ + 3$(my bet) + 8(his bet) = 17$ - 5$ call.
I'm not sure where you are getting the 20-5 from. I am assuming you are talking about my chances of hitting on the turn. I have 8 cards that make my straight + 7 cards to make my flush (9 - 2 that count for straight flush). There are 47 cards remaining so it is 47-15 against me making it or apx 16 -5.

[ QUOTE ]
24-17 payoff on the all-in(for a 49-17 chance). I don't like either of those options.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the all-in. I was raising 19$ (5$call + 14$ raise) to win a 50$ pot (6$preflop +3$my bet + 8$his bet + 19$mine + 14$ his call)=50$.

So I would have the same 15 outs, but would have two cards remaining to complete my hand. Depending on what he holds, I am either a slight favorite or a 2-1 underdog, so no matter what I was getting correct odds to go all-in. Also there is a chance that he would fold to my raise (folding equity), increasing the profitability of the move.

I hope this helps, let me know if I am wrong somewhere

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
For the all-in. I was raising 19$ (5$call + 14$ raise) to win a 50$ pot (6$preflop +3$my bet + 8$his bet + 19$mine + 14$ his call)=50$.


[/ QUOTE ]
You can't include your own $19 in the pot size. If you fold now, you end up with $19. If you push and win, you end up with $50. So you are risking $19 to make $31.