Help for a Newbie (ish) please ?

[Jonny1723]

Hello,

I currently play on Prima .25/.50, having successfully moved up from .05/.10 and .10/.20.
I follow the strategy set out in Lee Jones' WLLH book, and it has served me very well thus far.

However, I am becoming increasingly frustrated with how things are going at the moment.

It seems there is no end to the chasers willing to see the river with anything despite raises/reraises on every street.
It is therefore inevitable that there are going to be suckouts.

However, I can see no end to the chasing, as it appears to be getting rewarded.

Now I know that "in the long run", these are the people you want at your table, and you will take money of them etc, but I can't see an end to the short term.

Some Examples last night were :

A set of Aces beaten by a 5 high straight on the river (villian had 23o) - This post was capped PF.
Twice a flopped nut straight beaten when 3rd flush card came on the river. (once villian had 26s, the other time the villian had Q3s)
Ace Flush beaten by Full House 4s full of 2s (again, this was capped PF)
Twice KK beaten by unlikely two pair on a board of undercards with no draws (once villian had 24o, once villian had J6o)

Obviously these were just my big losing hands - I'm sure others had similar.

By the same token, I'm sure others were benefactors of these "chasers".
Personally I wasn't last night (although no doubt I will on other nights, so reckon I was just running cold last night)

What I'd like to know from the experts on here is :

1) How do you manage to stay so patient whilst going through a run like this.

2) Is there any way to protect your good hands ? (I raise and reraise where necessary, but people still seem to stay in with Trash. Even if I check raise, people will still call 2 cold)

3) I'm assuming I shouldn't loosen up my play to compete with the chasers, but is there anything I should do ? (I actually tightened up last night, without any joy)

4) If you do tighten up your play, and are still "running cold" (Either not getting the hands, or worse still, getting good hands but seeing them cracked), What should you do ?

5) At what limits do the "chasers" disappear (not completely as I realise there will always be some, but 6-7 to a table is too many IMO)

I appreciate any advice you can offer on the above, as I feel I am getting nowhere, yet am fully confident in my ability to succeed at this level playing the way I do.

Thanks in advance

Jonny.

[stigmata]

I'm sure you know these are the players that make you money in the long run, so I wont patronise you by repeating that.

Basically, you gotta just grin and bear it. Sorry. Everyone has awful runs where you get suck out after suck out.

To answer your questions:

1. I stay patient by trying to think in terms of "Sklansky bucks". E.g. I did the right thing, and in some alternate universe I made a killing at the table tonight. If I find myself getting really frustrated just quit and do something else.... watch a film or whatever and come back fresh another day.

2. Sounds like you are protecting your hand correctly. Remeber, people calling cold with longshot draws is a good thing.

3. Maybe you should loosen up. There are so many players seeing the flop that you get odds for any hand that can flop big. I would suggest that you could play any pocket pair or any suited ace from pretty much any position if it is not yet raised, and usually you can play pocket pairs if it is raised and there are a few people in the pot.You might want to loosen up with suited connectors also.

I think alot of your money at microlimits is made from correctly playing hands that flop big. You can bring down 1 or 2 massive pots and be up for the session.

4. Are you recognising when your good hands are getting cracked? Maybe your are just taking them too far?

That said, the worst session are the ones where you get nice cards, put lots in the pot, and then never seem to win. There is not much you can do about it - its just the wrong side of variance. Just keep cool and concentrate on doing the right thing, not your results.

5. Chasers gradually fade out as you move out, but at around 2/4 - 3/6 they become increasingly rare. At 3/6 you will still see perhaps 2 or 3 people per table who will sometimes call without odds, but they are not chasers in the sense of microlimits.

Just remember chasers are good, and they give you money in the long run. It just sounds like you are on a downsing at the moment (and you will have many, many more). Keep cool, dont go on tilt, play correct, and enjoy the upswings!

[K C]

Excellent posts stigmata. There's not too much I can add here actually.

Jonny: Protecting hands isn't running people out of the pot necessarily, it's making them pay if they want to draw on you. You can make them pay more at NL, when you want to give this a try. As a matter of fact, even though the limit games at Prima are soft, it's the NL ones where the real action is. They'll still chase, but will pay more to do so.

At what level does a lot of chasing subside? Well it depends where you play. Some sites will see players chasing bad draws regularly at much higher limits, even $30/$60.

Loosening up a bit would be fine, but I wouldn't want to overdo it too much. You don't want to go down to their level. You want to usually have the advantage whenever you're in a hand of course. This kind of table does let you play more drawing hands, but you want to be careful not to be calling raises with them unless there's a lot of people in the pot.

Mostly, don't let a run of bad luck get you down, or get you off your game. Your profit is going to be higher at real loose games, but remember, your variance will be too. Meaning that your bad streaks can go longer. It's well worth it though, as you will see as long as you continue to play solid.

Good luck
KC
http://kingcobrapoker.com

[stigmata]

[ QUOTE ]
At what level does a lot of chasing subside? Well it depends where you play. Some sites will see players chasing bad draws regularly at much higher limits, even $30/$60.


[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I had a bigger bakroll. When/where would I find chasers at 30/60?

Not that I could afford all those bad beats... crikey those downswings must really hurt!!!

[stigmata]

Another way of looking at this:

As the number of players increase in the hand, TP/TK becomes increasingly less likely to win the hand.

Even if you have an overpair, your pot equity isn't neccessarily that great. For example, you have AA. Somebody else has a flush draw, and there are a few other people with one pair or a gutshot draw. Your Pot equity might by 30% chance of winning, the flush draw has 40% equity, and the others between them have 30% chance of winning.

Each bet you get in the pot is good - both for value, and to force people with long draws to call incorrecly (or fold).

However, you can see that when there are alot of people in the pot, you are going to lose alot of good hands. Just because you have TPTK, you have no automotic right to win. It is quite likely that you will be sucked out several times in a row.

I think it is perhaps healthier to view losing with TPTK as similar to a flush draw that missed. You had good odds to bet/call, but the wrong card fell on the river.

[Kirkrrr]

Ever had a great night and brought down the house? As in, you were beaten but didn't know it, played incorrectly, and caught the perfect card that made it a great evening?

We all have, and this is just the flip side of it. You know that you're playing correctly, they are not, and are succeeding just in the short-term. That's why the ones that don't get better won't be playing by this time next year, prolly.

Take 2-3 days off (a week is recommended but I know from personal experience that it's hard to take a week off from something you love). Go exercise, hang out with friends, read a good book, get drunk, and don't think about poker. You'll come back reinvigorated and able to play your usual best game.

Good luck,
Kirk R.

[richrf]

Hi Jonny,

As a newbie myself, I would be interested in knowing how long you have been playing and whether you are net negative or positive? Thanks.

Rich

[Jonny1723]

Hello everyone,

Thank you for taking the time to post, I do appreciate it.

I agree with what you say, it's just difficult at times to stay as patient as I need.
(I think I need to work on my patience in general, not just in poker!)

I also know that the hands I lost with last night, will probably win me pot after pot after pot tonight.
I think I just need to keep remembering the good nights I have (and dwell on them more than I dwell on the losing nights)

PS K C - I think NL would be a huge mistake for me at this point in my learning. Thanks for the advice though,

PPS Richrf - I have been playing for approximately 1 year now (give or take a month or two), but in reality when I started out I was terrible. (Any high card I would play, didn't care about position, didn't notice what was going on around the table etc)

However, I read a few books and slowly improved my game to the stage I am at now.

I probably played about 10000 hands before I bought Poker Tracker, and have about 4000 hands in Poker Tracker now.
My stats in PT are :

Stakes - Hands - VP$IP - PFR - BB/100
.05/.10 - 750 - 30.80 - 9.07 - 20.24
.10/.20 - 3177 - 25.31 - 7.93 - 21.21

Although I'm not 100% sure what these all mean yet, I am definitely in profit overall.
However, I do realise the sample size is very small.

Thanks.
J

[richrf]

Hi Jonny,

Thanks for the response. You and others using Poker Tracker may be interested in this article:
http://www.internettexasholdem.com/p...as-a-beginner/

Cya around,
Rich

[AngryCola]

Please use the URL tags (to the right of the greamlins) for long links like that.

This is nothing personal against you. It's always important to remind people of this. It stretches out the the thread and makes us all suffer through the dreaded "horizontal scrolling" [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Thanks.