how far out of line was I...online 10/20?

lil feller · #1 12-24-2004, 01:05 AM

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, MP2 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets, CO raises, MP2 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero raises, CO calls.

River: (9.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 11.75 BB

I'm sure I'm going to get flamed here, probably on every street...fire away

W. Deranged · #2 12-24-2004, 01:46 AM

I think the pre-flop raise is suspect for obvious reasons, so I won't really get into that. (I'll assume you were having fun...)

I think the post-flop play is interesting. I'm actually going to say that your play is really not that bad here after the flop. You're pretty committed to betting out the flop after the raise. The raise by CO is interesting. When CO raises after cold-calling in a pretty small pot pre-flop, I would read him pretty strongly for a mid-pair here, meaning you can safely give yourself 7 outs. So you need to take off a turn.

The turn check-raise is the really strange part of this hand. I strongly doubt that CO has a K in his hand, and he may well put you on AK or the like, so you might get some fold equity from a turn check-raise. As it stands, if you give yourself all 7 outs and assume that you will get one bet from CO on the river, your implied odds are 5.75 to 1 on the turn, very slightly better than the 39 to 7 the decks giving you, so I think a call on the turn is probably in order. (The fact that some of your outs might be dead is offset by the potential for getting more than 1 bet on the river and the chance that your opponent is getting even more out of hand than you are). Since a call is in order, you might try to gain more equity by showing some strength, and the check-raise certainly does that.

My preferred play, though, would be just to lead the turn. When the K hits, a hand like 77 or 88 probably won't raise the turn, so you get the same price as a check-call (which is slightly +EV), and you get the added benefit of fold equity. You're opponent may be more likely to fold if you check-raise the turn, but you also cut down your odds so much that I don't think you make up the added investment with extra fold equity.

jimswarthow · #3 12-24-2004, 01:51 AM

Are u really looing for an answer here? You raised with a marginal hand OK... I'll give yiou a pass on that. Called a raise with nothing ... aghh forget it waste of time. I love players like you in my game. Well at least you know this was horrendous.

lil feller · #4 12-24-2004, 02:19 AM

thats got to be one of the most worthless posts I've ever had the displeasure of reading. thanks for the great input...

mmcd · #5 12-24-2004, 02:37 AM

Assuming the open limper was a weak player (usually a safe assumption with MP open limpers), the CO and button are reasonably tight in raised pots preflop, and the CO is capable of making a laydown postflop, VNH.

lil feller · #6 12-24-2004, 02:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming the open limper was a weak player (usually a safe assumption with MP open limpers), the CO and button are reasonably tight in raised pots preflop, and the CO is capable of making a laydown postflop, VNH.

[/ QUOTE ]

My read on the players after having been in the game for about 3 hours was that the blinds were tight, the c/o was weak and predictable, and the MP would open raise with anything better than A2...I raised PF fully confident I had the best hand of the people currently committed to seeing the flop...and then got called behind me.

CardSharpCook · #7 12-24-2004, 05:09 AM

First, I think that "deranged"'s post is right on. Second, let's discuss PF action. If MP2 is open raising with anything better than A2s, then what does he call with? I don't know my PF odds as well as I should, but A2s beats j4o 57/43? So you may have a better hand than MP2, I'll grant you that, but if he is the kind of player who calls PF with less than A2s, you'll have a hard time getting him out of the pot if he pairs (38% he pairs on flop - if he pairs you have a 13% of pairing your ace). So even if you could garuntee that it would be you and he in the pot - I still don't like the hand - you can't bet it with confidence and if it hits, he'd fold to an ace on the board anyway.

But I wouldn't raise with A2s with 4 players yet to act. You still have a 24% chance of running into a PP, and a...36%? chance of running into a ace with a better kicker. True, not all ace high hands will call, but...

I have trouble seeing this play as having +EV.

But Deranged's comments about Post Flop play are correct.

bobbyi · #8 12-24-2004, 11:35 AM

You really should have included these player descriptions in the original post. From the preflop action I had assumed (or hoped) that you believed that the limper would almost always have a hand worse than yours and that the remaining players would usually fold, but it's still good to hear it. Anyway, taking the preflop play as a given, I think it would be wrong to play the flop any other way. Your ace-high could easily be the best hand and the cutoff behind you is capable of folding, so you really want to try to push him out here. If he will coldcall with a hand like KQs and fold it for a bet having missed the flop, the bet is mandatory. You will get the pot heads up with the limper with position rather than being in the middle of a three-way pot. This is huge. You will much improve your chances of winning since anything the cutoff could hold is either beating you or has plenty of outs. If he folds a hand like ATs and leaves you heads up with a worse hand than yours, that is obviously fantastic. Plus, you may win it here. Of course, this depends somewhat on player knowledge. If he would only coldcall pf with pocket pairs, then the bet is hopeless. But in the general case, you need to bet this flop. And, having been raised, you need to take a card off.

Once you've check-raised the turn, it's fine to bet the river having hit your card. Against some opponents, a check-raise would obviously be better, but in general, it's hard to argue with the river.

So even though you say that every street is flame-worthy, it's really only possible to hate the turn and preflop. And admittedly I don't like either of those. I suppose if you have seen this guy fold the turn in similar scenarios many times, the turn check-raise would be right. If you aren't sure, then I don't like it. If he's really that tight, you are probably as likely to get him to fold with a bet as with a check-raise, and it saves you a bet when it fails.

worm33 · #9 12-24-2004, 07:09 PM

i dont know why your looking to isolate pre-flop with this hand. If you flop an ace its prolly goona go check bet fold. If you flop a deuce well you have a deuce. If this hand ever gets past the flop its usualy because you dont have a pair. Good luck.

Yeknom58 · #10 12-24-2004, 02:37 AM

How loose are the blinds/CO/Button. Unless I was fairly sure I was going to buy the button and fold at least one of the blinds I would probably limp or fold.

I'm fairly sure you've got 7 outs so I'm seeing a turn.

On the turn, unless I had a pretty good read I think I would probably bet or check fold. Not a big fan of the CR. If you think an opponent would fold to a CR, I think he would fold to a bet. So on the turn I like a bet more than a CR and if I checked I think I would probably just fold if he bet.