KJo - An example of how my game has changed.

crockett · #1 12-23-2004, 10:32 AM

This hand is from awhile ago.

I don't like the way I played it all. I'll add my comments but I would like yours as well.

I would most like to here others opinions on what you do on the flop. I think I can handle the rest.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, Hero calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button raises, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (14.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero raises, CO folds, Button 3-bets, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

 The pot is big and I'm expecting a raise from the button so do I call here and then call the eventual raise? I think today this is what I would do. With no backdoor draw I might even fold the flop. I think raising here is wrong.


Turn: (14.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks, Button bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: Well, I hit what I wanted! The board is totally uncoordinated. I think today I raise the turn, just calling is weak. 

River: (18.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks, Button bets, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 22.75 BB

River: Not sure...pot is big so check calling might be o.k., in case the button has a big pair. If I would've raised the turn and saw no resistance then I lead the river.

kenberman · #2 12-23-2004, 11:04 AM

On the flop, I think you need to call 1 bet getting 15-1.

I think raising is bad.

Button 3 betting behind you is bad. If you figured that to be likely - and you figure button to have solid 3 betting standards, then I think you need to consider folding the flop the first time around.

k000k · #3 12-23-2004, 12:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, I think you need to call 1 bet getting 15-1.

I think raising is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

15:1, but you can expect a button raise a lot of the time. If he does, you're odds probably go down to 9:1 or so. Split the diff. and call it 12:1 I fold the flop, KJ isn't good against a PF raiser most of the time. Now you got a guy betting into the PF raiser, I'd say he WANTS bt to raise and trap everyone. Scary stuff..

You have nothing, 2 overcards, and you can't say you have a full 6 outs here. 6 outs are 8:1, after a discount I think 12:1 is very generous, which matches our return estimate above. It's a close call, but I still throw it away.

Raising I think is maniacal. 'Raise to protect', protect what?? K hi with no draws?

zephed56 · #4 12-23-2004, 11:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This hand is from awhile ago.

I don't like the way I played it all. I'll add my comments but I would like yours as well.

I would most like to here others opinions on what you do on the flop. I think I can handle the rest.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, Hero calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button raises, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (14.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero raises, CO folds, Button 3-bets, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

 The pot is big and I'm expecting a raise from the button so do I call here and then call the eventual raise? I think today this is what I would do. With no backdoor draw I might even fold the flop. I think raising here is wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]
I think calling here is wrong. Fold it. You don't have 6 outs.

Your K overcard could be dominated by the button, and both of your overcards could be reverse dominated by the huge field. With the large field, you could be facing a made 2-pair.

6 very tainted outs with no draws out of position, and you will usually face a raise behind on the flop.

You can't always count your odds on the flop as 15.5:1 because it will often be raised behind.
The pot IS big, but I would fold. I may be way off here.

On the turn, I think I would lead out so I can gauge whether I should showdown. It may also thin the field if the button raises you, which is a mixed blessing.

btspider · #5 12-23-2004, 11:19 AM

PF: fold

flop: grudgingly fold for 1 bet (the first time) on the flop. you have to fear a raise behind you with this horrible relatively position to peel one off (great relative position if you hit). a raise is probably better than a call *if* button will fold AK on the flop and clean up some outs, free card, etc. and um, you have no backdoor draw.

turn: well, what do you make of button's flop cold-3bet? overpair? i think a check-call is fine. fold if its two bets back to you. this will be your best chance to bail. you cannot protect your hand. if you bet and he raises, you are probably beat.. but would see the river to try to pair up. i'm more undecided on this street since a check-through by AK/AQ would be really bad.

river: check-call is fine with that turn action.

edit: i'm not sure i like my turn thoughts, but that was what I thought as I read the hand. betting is probably best in a large pot.

crockett · #6 12-23-2004, 11:45 AM

Thanks for the comments.

PF: Fold? Are you sure you read that right?

3 limpers, middle position, more limpers expected (this is 0.5/1) and you fold KJo. If yes your sure then what do you call with here. KJo is pretty nice hand in a multi-way pot of limpers.

I realize that in this case it was raised, but if it is not then you can easily let it go on the flop if you miss but if you hit it can be a big pay-off.

Entity · #7 12-23-2004, 11:46 AM

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PF: Fold? Are you sure you read that right?

[/ QUOTE ]
I fold here as well. KJo does not play well multiway, and is not a hand I like to have in middle position.

Rob

afk · #8 12-23-2004, 11:52 AM

I fold KJo pf here as well. Basically....what Entity said.

crockett · #9 12-23-2004, 12:38 PM

Hmmm...I still pose my orginal question.

So what DO you call with then. I'm taking it you pitch ATo as well?

Entity · #10 12-23-2004, 11:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
you can easily let it go on the flop if you miss

[/ QUOTE ]
You can?