Bankroll -- Again

[schroedy]

Whether through superior skills, or because of a lucky run of cards (or, I suppose, most likely of all, due to the good fortune of regularly finding completely idiotic opponents), my bankroll has gotten quite fat over the last couple of months.

Now don't get me wrong, a fat bankroll is a quality problem and I know that. But a problem, actually a series of problems, nonetheless.

First Problem -- Fear of Loss : I am not sure I want to move up any more in limits. While my bankroll might be able to tolerate swings of -100 BBs, -200 BBs or even more at double my current limits, my "emotional bankroll" is not yet set to deal with swings of that caliber (I can't even remember my last -20 BB session, and in general, I get pretty bent over ANY kind of losing session). I just don't see myself being all that comfortable dumping a couple of California-sized house payments into a card game.

Second Problem -- Fear of Success. Two thing come to mind here. The first is that I have in the past gotten some kind of "entitlement" to a certain level of winning fixed in my mind. This, of course, is a receipie for disaster. When the cards come you win and when they don't you wait until they do, or you lose. Winning at a certain level has, in the past, created in me an expectation to continue winning at that level -- or to believe that something is wrong if I don't. The second issue with fear of success, however, is that certain of my expenses (taxes, child support) are tied to my income level. I certainly don't want to go on some big, but temporary, run at cards and be expected to pay child support, for example, based on that earn rate which may not be sustainable and certainly won't be steady and predictable.

Third Problem -- Saftey and Security. Somehow it just doesn't seem too smart to be walking around the parking lot at Commerce with 300 BB's in my pocket. I am also not sure where to leave this money at home. I suppose that a home safe is in order.

Fourth Problem -- Maintaining the Integrity of the Poker Bankroll. From time to time I move money out of the bankroll and into things like savings accounts, real estate investments, paying monthly expenses, etc. But should I consider the money earned part of my bankroll anyway? Or are some cases (savings accounts) different than others (paying for monthly expenses, or, to a lesser extent, illiquid investments like real estate).

I suppose that's quite a bit, but the two most troublesome questions from all of that are: 1) what is my bankroll, really? and 2) Should I (Why do I) feel badly about not feeling ready to play at the highest level theoretically appropriate to my bankroll?

[La Brujita]

This is perhaps a bit of an Eastern response but my thoughts are the mind is a very powerful thing. If something inside you is telling you it is not the right time to move up it may well not be the right time.

I have no idea if you play professionally or for fun, or how much money you have apart from poker but if you play poker for the enjoyment of the game (even if you do really well and make a good bit of cash) why let the mere fact you won for a bit change the place of enjoyment you were in.

And the other thing is, you are obviously on a hot streak of cards if you don't remember a 20BB loss. I seem to average somewhere around 20bb swings every hour 2 or 3 tabling the 15-30 (but wild loose games), perhaps it is a small exaggeration but not much of one. I think I have had a swing of 1k in more than half of my last 10-15 days. I don't know if this is unusual and I have a vpip of about 19% in that period so I am not some wild loose player.

I dropped 200 BBs in three days out of nowhere and it was not a fun experience. It can happen. I recovered all of it basically but it took three weeks of grinding to get it back.

Just my thoughts.

[schroedy]

Well playing a mix of 10/20 and 15/30 tonight I dropped $850 (let's say 30 BBs for an average) in 3 hours.

So, no, I am not invincible. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Just glad I wan't at 30/60, 40/80 or something when the cards went sour and then my play followed.

[Reef]

bankroll is like the initial capital in a business needed to help it expand.

Don't move up limits until you're ready. But on the other extreme, building up a comfort level too much can cause you to not want to move up when you should

[BarronVangorToth]

You were talking about what you walk about with at casinos... Perhaps in the high stakes no limit games this is the norm, but I don't think most people walk into a casino with 300 BB in their pocket.

I go to Foxwoods regularly and play 5/10 and 10/20 and seldom go with more than $300 or $400 on me. IF necessary, I go to the ATM -- but it's not like I have to carry all of my poker money on me at all times.

Your bankroll doesn't have to be an actual thing, but rather just keep a log (in a notebook or on your computer) saying +X this day, -Y this day, etc etc and you can track your poker winnings/losings without just keeping a magical elastic around every poker nickel you have.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com

[schroedy]

Part of my problem is that when money goes out of the "front pocket" poker bankroll, it is a little harder to get it back in there. If it is deposited in the savings account, that is a joint account with my wife and I am going to have to explain to her why I need to withdraw money, if I need to withdraw money, later. If it is used to pay down the VISA bill, then BoA probably won't readvance the cash. etc. I just don't feel as "bankroll secure" without having it in my front pocket, I guess.

Even just personally and mentally, when I take money off the poker table and out of the "100% poker" funds, I just don't consider it as much a part of the bankroll anymore.

So I don't want to mix these funds with any other funds (or really even put them in the bank).

I think on the cash side a home safe is really the answer. I am still not sure what to do about the online stash.

[worm33]

first of all they have safety deposit boxes at commerce right? Get one of those and your "poker bankroll" will never leave the casino so you wont have to worry about getting robbed etc. After that if you can beat the 15-30 and 20-40 at commerce there is no doubt that you will beat the 30 and 40 games. You have to get over the pyschological pitfall of possibly losing $2000 in a night or 5000 for that matter. Once your bankroll gets to a certain point you wont sweat out day-day losses. Swings are going to happen. Someday your going to lose 50 bb's someday your going to win 100. Getting the mind to deal with it is a very tough task. Good luck.

[QuickLearner]

[ QUOTE ]
If it is deposited in the savings account, that is a joint account with my wife and I am going to have to explain to her why I need to withdraw money, if I need to withdraw money, later.

I think on the cash side a home safe is really the answer. I am still not sure what to do about the online stash.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preachiness alert: Your reluctance to explain money issues to your wife should worry you more than anything else. Don't hide anything from your lifelong partner.

I think a home safe is a great idea for everyone. Get a fire-resistant one from a reputable local dealer and have them install it because they weigh a ton! You'll end up filling it with wills, insurance forms, vehicle titles, extra checks, your wife's jewelry, etc.

What about keeping your online money in Neteller? Or are we talking about so much money that the 1.9% savings account interest is worth the trouble?

[schroedy]

I don't have problems discussing money with my wife.

It's the poker that I have the problem with.

Although she is playing some poker herself, she has yet to fully grasp the inherent randomness within the game, and the consequent susceptibility of even the good player to swings. No amount of mathematically sound explanation can substitute for plain old experience on this front.

[dogmeat]

I've had a similar problem regarding your question #1. Although it was not my plan, I think I just solved it by playing anyway. I like to quit when I get ahead, and I was hesitating to move to higher limits. I've played most of the week at $10/$20, and although I have taken a hit of about 150BB (yeah, bad timing for all the 22-1 shots to come in), it happens, and I'm not feeling too bad about it.

The players are worse than at $5/$10, the only real difference is it's a few more chips each bet. I'm sorry I started off losing, but he same thing happened when I went to $5/$10......... I'm already o'k with it.

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]