QUEEN-QUEEN Offsuit

nepenthe · #1 12-03-2004, 08:53 PM

Everyone at the table seems quite typical. Not too maniacal and somewhat loose, they will push draws as well as strong hands alike and stay in too long with the worst of it. As usual, I took a slightly different approach from the usual.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero calls, CO raises, SB calls, BB calls, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (10 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB calls, BB folds.

River: (13 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets...

What do you think of the flop line?

MarkD · #2 12-03-2004, 08:56 PM

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What do you think of the flop line?

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What was your reasoning behind just smooth calling the initial bet?

nepenthe · #3 12-03-2004, 09:35 PM

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What was your reasoning behind just smooth calling the initial bet?

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A risky experimentation knowing full well I'm running a fair risk of losing the pot.

The T.A. · #4 12-03-2004, 10:40 PM

With straight and flush draws a plenty, this is a VERY risky experiment.

I'd just stick with a raise.

AngryCola · #5 12-03-2004, 10:48 PM

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this is a VERY risky experiment

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I don't know that its all that risky.

Isn't this one of those situations when you should wait until the turn to raise, ala SSHE? Your 3 bet caused you to be able to charge only one BB on the turn.

Btw, I didn't realize pocket queens could be anything but offsuit.

The T.A. · #6 12-03-2004, 11:02 PM

If raising on the flop would eliminate the CO, I'd definitely raise.

EliteNinja · #7 12-03-2004, 11:04 PM

Raise the flop, easy decision.

nepenthe · #8 12-04-2004, 12:01 AM

First, if I try a play similar to the one above, I would be more inclined to do it with KK or AA, both of which are less vulnerable to overcards. In that sense trying it with QQ is slightly more dangerous.

My plan indeed was to raise a relatively safe turn card (i.e. non-flush, anything that doesn't complete an obvious straight, and yes, even overcards) and tread carefully if a danger card fell. However, when CO raised the flop with position, the plan was essentially shot to hell as my options have just been greatly reduced as far as protection goes. At that point, my question is: should I just call CO's raise and see what develops on the turn, or reraise the flop? Well, if I were just to call the flop raise, what do I do on a blank turn? Going for a turn checkraise is much too risky for obvious reasons, and must be rejected. Therefore my only turn option is to bet out and hope CO 1) has a worse hand/draw, and 2) raises with said worse hand. This combination is unlikely from a typical opponent. Still, betting is the only feasible option for the turn even though it will fail to face anyone with incorrect odds for any marginal draws.

Knowing that I must bet the turn, and also knowing there is very little likelihood that I can protect my hand, the cat is out of the bag. I must reraise the flop for value.

AngryCola · #9 12-04-2004, 12:10 AM

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Going for a turn checkraise is much too risky for obvious reasons, and must be rejected

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Why? I think it's an excellent spot for a CR, but I'm not that great of a player.

The action on the flop strongly suggests that someone will bet again on the turn. If you aren't confident that someone is going to bet in this spot, when is a CR EVER acceptable?
That is most likely the play I would make from the position you were in, but I guess I could be wrong.

Again, the only problem I see is there is some lost value on the turn. When you 3 bet on the flop like that, you are probably just going to get check-called on the turn (profitably for your opponents).

It's the nature of my game to try and charge more on the turn.

You raising the flop after it was 2-bet is fine, and is definitely +EV, but (personally) I would go for a CR on the turn.

I think this debate illustrates the problems with being out of position pretty well. I just think if you don't think a CR will work in this spot, you will rarely find times that it will work (unless you have a monster).

That's all just my opinion, and I could very well be wrong.

nepenthe · #10 12-04-2004, 12:40 AM

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Going for a turn checkraise is much too risky for obvious reasons, and must be rejected

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I think this debate illustrates the problems with being out of position pretty well. I just think if you don't think a CR will work in this spot, you will rarely find times that it will work (unless you have a monster).

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A turn checkraise, if it works, would be excellent. It is just that it would be too much of a disaster if a turn blank gets checked through by CO's flush/straight draws or whatever, such that I am unwilling to attempt it unless I was close to 100% sure CO would bet the turn. And I wasn't even 80% sure, without compelling reads to boot.