Turbos vs. normal SNGs

[willie24]

from reading the forum, it appears that the general consensus is that it is easier to beat normal speed SNGs for a higher ROI. Some posts suggest that this is because the faster the blinds escalate, the more "luck" comes into play, reducing the edge that good players possess.

This seems odd to me. in fact i would suggest the exact opposite.

I think it's fair to say that the most important SNG skill is endgame ability. endgame is where most players play worst, therefore giving good players most of their edge.

essentially, turbos create more endgame situations, and reduce low-blind waiting time. (in low-blind situations, the best players have a smaller advantage than in the endgame).

granted, i just started playing on a site that has Turbos, but so far, my expectations have been surpassed even. they seem to be extremely easy games to me.

i'd like to hear some arguments from the other side here.

[wegs the wegs]

I fail to see how a turbo would produce more endgame situations than a normal SnG. Would they not produce the same amount?

Turbo's are a game of bingo. If your monster hand doesn't come up in the first 20 hands you are done. If a good player has an advantage on the table the advantage will be visible in a 100 hand tournament compared to a 25 hand tournament.

Even in the end game situation, how many hands can be played heads up before blinds are 50% of each players stack? Skill in poker is shown over the long run, playing just a few hands eliminates any and all skill, and it does just come down to who hits their hands.

[willie24]

i should clarify "more endgame" situations. what i meant was- a greater proportion of endgame situations relative to total hands.

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playing just a few hands eliminates any and all skill, and it does just come down to who hits their hands.


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this of course is true if you assume that opponents will play correctly when the blinds are very big- that is, very loose-aggressive. the fact is that most of them won't... therefore giving a good player a huge advantage.

also there is no turbo i have seen that is only 25 hands. i don't know the exact figures in terms of hands, but i would assume that a typical turbo is somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 hands? while a normal sng is maybe 165? not sure if thats close, but i think it must be a lot closer than 25 vs 100.

it doesn't matter all that much though. a good player could certainly be expected to show a good profit (against average opponents) in a series of super-turbos that were, on average, only 25 hands.

every hand gives every player a chance to make good decisions or bad ones. when the blinds are very big in a tournament, those decisions are much, much, more important, and usually more difficult, than any decision could possibly be at level 1 of a normal SNG.

[jcm4ccc]

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when the blinds are very big in a tournament, those decisions are much, much, more important, and usually more difficult, than any decision could possibly be at level 1 of a normal SNG.


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When the blinds are very big, the decision is:
A. all-in, or
B. not all-in.

The decision is very important, and difficult to do well. I just don't see how it's more difficult than beginning or middle-game situations (where you have a universe of options, compared to the endgame).

[jcm4ccc]

I'm exaggerating, of course. But there are much fewer options, compared to the beginning and middle game.

[willie24]

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The decision is very important, and difficult to do well. I just don't see how it's more difficult than beginning or middle-game situations (where you have a universe of options, compared to the endgame).


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the decision in the early game is easy: fold.

unless you have the nuts

[UMTerp]

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but i would assume that a typical turbo is somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 hands?

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At least in the Stars Turbos, yes, that's in the ballpark. They generally last to about the 300-600 level, which is in the 45-50 minute range.

[bucci]

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Turbo's are a game of bingo. If your monster hand doesn't come up in the first 20 hands you are done. If a good player has an advantage on the table the advantage will be visible in a 100 hand tournament compared to a 25 hand tournament.

Even in the end game situation, how many hands can be played heads up before blinds are 50% of each players stack? Skill in poker is shown over the long run, playing just a few hands eliminates any and all skill, and it does just come down to who hits their hands.

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You obviously don't play turbos. I play only turbos.
Turbos last a lot longer than 25 hands.

It depends on how you define a "good" player. By most definitions, yes, the "good" player has more of an advantage in the longer format. There is still plenty of room to exploit your advantage in the turbo format...

The endgame argument from the original post is invalid. I find that only about 1/3 of the time i get head's up are the blinds low enough to actually play. I like this because you'd be suprised how weak most people play head's up in the turbos. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Turbos are a totally different game. More a headgame than a regular SnG. You can play more in less time, and the rake is slightly lower. Both compensate a bit the fact that your ROI is going to be lower...

ROI high or low, if you're a winning player and your bankroll is big enough, then your winnings over time are a function of how many SnGs you can play.

[UMTerp]

How much lower is one's expected ROI for Turbo SNG's? I decided to start playing Turbos about a week ago, have about 200 $15+$1's under my belt, and although it's not a huge sample, have a 0.21 right now. I was a little disppointed with that number (this is the first time I've actually kept stats), given the numbers I read on here all the time that are often around 0.4. So 0.2 isn't that bad for Turbos if I can maintain it?? Or should my ultimate goal be higher??

I can live with 0.21, since I'm doing it 4-tabling, and I can generally knock out 6 or 7 Tubro SNGs in an hour (~$25ish/hour), just wondering if that was about normal among those keeping stats for Turbos here.

[bucci]

I think 21% is great. I would move up if i were you...

I'm doing 10% at the 105 level, which i'm pretty happy with..