Garbage hands with great implied odds?

[tree_stump]

Playing Party NL25 tonight, and something about a bad beat made me think...

UTG limps ($0.5), I raise to $2 from UTG+2 with pocket 10s, 2 callers, Villain calls from CO. BB and UTG both call. 6 to the flop in a raised pot (now equal $12.5).

Jxx flop, two diamonds. I bet $8 into the pot. CO-2 and villain call.

x of diamonds comes on the turn. I go all-in for $20 more into the $36 pot.

Villain calls with Kd8d.

Now, ignore the bad beat factor (because I don't care and that's not what the question is about)... If you think you're going to be 5 or 6 to the flop, does it make sense to speculate with a crap hand like K8s? Obviously, you're looking flush only, as you have no pair value... With deep stacks, I think this is a terrible play, but with typical short stacks at Party NL, you're almost guaranteed to get someone all-in with a pot this big... It seems like the implied odds (and the $75 final value of the pot) allows someone to toss $2 at Kxs and hope for the flush.

Any thoughts?

EDIT: And another thought... this may make more sense in a deep stack game, where your upside isn't capped. What about that?

[soah]

A lot of hands are playable if you know that your opponent will go all-in with one pair even when the board has an overcard and three cards of the same suit. Come to think of it, that's where his implied odds come from...

[tree_stump]

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of hands are playable if you know that your opponent will go all-in with one pair even when the board has an overcard and three cards of the same suit.

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If you want to criticize my play, go for it... I take down this pot 9 of 10 times with that $20 bet.

But seriously, if you're confident that if you can get 5 or 6 to the flop, does playing Kxs or Axs mathematically make sense?

[Yeti]

[ QUOTE ]

If you want to criticize my play, go for it... I take down this pot 9 of 10 times with that $20 bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm assuming you've just plucked that figure out of thin air as I find it impossible to believe. I used to do things like this until I learned better.

A standard opponent is likely to call you on the flop with a J or a diamond draw, you are now practically drawing dead to both.

Check the turn.

Apologies if this sounds harsh, I just timed out of a flopped set pot whilst replying to this [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Al_Capone_Junior]

well, I am not the greatest no limit player who ever lived, but I quite consistently beat up on these games, so for what it's worth...

I tend to play LOOSEST at no limit, particularly when I have position. K8s is NOT pure trash, it can make a flush or two pair and BUST someone. No limit is about IMPLIED odds. Why the hell would you call a preflop raise with 22 in a limit game if you knew it would be heads-up? Well, if you had any common sense, you wouldn't. But in no limit, if your opponent had a big hand, and you flopped a set, you might just BUST HIS SORRY ASS. Thus the concept of implied odds...

I have busted many a player with some crappy ass hands, but only when I had both position and great implied odds.

Today I played T2s on the button for a limp with six players, passive blinds. Flop ten high, I had a flush draw. I called a fairly small bet. Turn was a deuce, I had two pair, he bet fairly big and I pushed. I wound up with a pretty darn nice pot out of the deal in the end. Now while T2s is pretty loose, I would ABSOLUTELY NEVER EVER play this crap up front, or for a raise. But when your opponents play REAL BADLY, you gotta sometimes just friggin' PLAY MORE HANDS because you can bust them when you flop really good!

A couple months ago I cracked AK (who didn't raise preflop) when I limped on the button with K6s. I flopped two pair and he couldn't get away from his TPTK. Note here that I would certainly NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS go bust with top pair, six kicker. It paid off WAY better than my pure theoretical preflop odds of beating him!

Keep this in mind... Implied odds is the name of the game in no limit.

al

[creedofhubris]

Don't play junk suited kings into raises.

The problem here is that you get trappped into second best hands. Two pair when someone has KKK or 888, king-high flush to AQ flush...

Suited connectors, particularly small ones, have the advantage of making straights and small trips that no one is likely to be able to beat. They're great to call into raises if the guy's going to go bust.

Things I would call into a raise, if the raiser had more than 10x the raise. (This is key, opponent has to have lots of money to make calling a raise with trash worthwhile.)

22-99
suited connectors and one-gappers from 34s-JTs

I dump suited aces unless they're ATs or better.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
Things I would call into a raise, if the raiser had more than 10x the raise. (This is key, opponent has to have lots of money to make calling a raise with trash worthwhile.)

22-99
suited connectors and one-gappers from 34s-JTs

I dump suited aces unless they're ATs or better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like calling raises, but I have a different set of suggestions.
Any pocket pair is money into raises because they're fairly easy to play. (I just need to stop losing money with 99 as an overpair, for example)
Something like JTs is nice because when broadways hit it helps you, and you can be fairly sure it helped the PFR as well. Also it's likely your cards are live. But...
Suited aces, even ATs, aren't good to call raises with. On most internet structures playing solely for a flush heads up is bad because even poor players dont pay off 3 of a suit on the board. Whether you have AJ, A6, or A2, it doesn't matter if they have AK or AQ. You're still dominated.

Unless the raiser raises loose, and I feel AJ is the best hand, I fold AJ and AT sooooted to raises. And alot of those little suited connectos aren't great because you're more likely to flop a draw than a made hand, and once again, because of the low blind structures, when you have the best hand there typically isn't enough money behind making the hand a +hand.

[damn_river]

i'd agree with capone. play the kxs hands late in loose games. hope for two pair, tripx with king kicker, or flush.
i think you were wrong to gamble without top pair and with so many callers.

[greg nice]

this play is so bad you can hardly call it a bad beat.

[tree_stump]

[ QUOTE ]
this play is so bad you can hardly call it a bad beat.

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How do you figure?

With a PFR, there are very few logical hands that can beat me and WILL CALL - AJo/s, KJo/s, QJo/s, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AdKd, KdQd. Maybe a JTo/s will call, but I'd be surprised if a logical player would call their stack away with TP marginal kicker.

So, If there are 12.5 combinations possible to beat me, and 169 total possible combinations, MHIG 93% of the time.

I may have failed to explain that there were three players to the turn, and only one called my push - the player that folded threw away JTo - that's the point of the bet.

I call it a bad beat because I got called PF with K8s - if it had been AKs, I call it one of the 7% of hands that beat me and smile.

Explain to me why aggression on this hand was a bad play.