bad rule at commerce

[snakehead]

here's the situation: player A bets, player B calls. player A says, "you win" and player B mucks his hand without showing. the commerce rule is that player B gets the pot.

there have been more arguments about this rule than I can count. it completely ignores the premise that the best hand should win. not to mention that a player has to show that hand, to verify that he does not have a fouled hand among other reasons.

but the commerce extends the qualifiying statements to include "you got it", "you got me", and a new one from a visiting korean player last night, "you beat me".

why any of these statements should affect the outcome of the hand is beyond me. besides, how does the floor know if player A says "you win!" or "you win?" or, if he's vietnamese, "you nguyen"? "you got me" or "you got me?"? or maybe "you beat me" is a korean curse that sounds like english. not to mention that most visiting players are probably unaware of this rule.

some of us have been lobbying to get this rule changed at the commerce to no avail. I don't know if it is the rule at other la casinos.

[SheridanCat]

This rule is assinine. Thanks for the heads-up though. I'll be in LA next month and thought I'd try out the Commerce. I'll just keep my mouth closed. What happens if I say, "If you have a flush, you win"?

Regards,

T

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
"you nguyen"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Classic.

Do they have a rule on overcalling hands? Player A bets, Player B calls. Player A says "I have a flush" and Player B mucks. Can Player B now ask to see Player A's hand? If he doesn't have a flush, what happens?

[andyfox]

I think the rule is that player A must show his hand and if he has less than advertised, player B gets the pot.

Frankly, I didn't know the rule snakehead mentions and I've never seen it in action. Maybe it happens more in the bigger games he plays in. What I've seen is player A bets, player B calls, player A says, "you win" or something similar and, eventually, mucks. Now player B mucks without showing.

I know they have a rule that verbal declarations are valid as action. So if I say "raise," I have to raise. I didn't think a declaration of the subjective value of a hand, like "you win," constitutes a concession. Sometimes, when I believe myself to be bluffing, and I get called, I'll tap my cards on the table, indicating resignment to second place, and say, "nice call." I always turn over my hand in these situations and, on some occasions, my hand has been good. Nobody has ever said I conceded when I tapped the table.

[snakehead]

if after betting you tap your cards and say "you win", the other player wins. I know it's hard to believe, but that's the rule.

it's meant to keep the first bettor from slow-rolling the caller. if the game is stud, and the bettor has only one pair of aces, he might think that he will only be called by a better hand. he says, "you got it", and his opponent shows a pair of jacks. then he says, "whoa, I thought you had me beat" and turns over the aces.

another situation could be that when the bettor says "you win" the caller thinks he was bluffing and is conceding the pot, so he mucks his hand thinking that the pot is coming his way. but I really don't think either of these is reason enough for the rule.

rather than giving the money to the worst hand, I think the players should learn to hold onto their hand until the bettor shows or declares his hand.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
if after betting you tap your cards and say "you win", the other player wins. I know it's hard to believe, but that's the rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

for what it's worth, this is the rule in games at my underground nyc card barn, *except* in the pot limit game. I think it's a stupid rule also, as do the rest of the PL players which is why it's not in effect for PL.

--turnipmonster

[andyfox]

"rather than giving the money to the worst hand, I think the players should learn to hold onto their hand until the bettor shows or declares his hand."

I agree. I think a verbal declaration of action (raise, call, check, bet) should be binding. But anything else is just normal BS and shouldn't mean anything.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]


Do they have a rule on overcalling hands? Player A bets, Player B calls. Player A says "I have a flush" and Player B mucks. Can Player B now ask to see Player A's hand? If he doesn't have a flush, what happens?

[/ QUOTE ]

This happened at Commerce a few days ago. I wasn't in the hand, but player A bet the river, player B called, and player A then shouted out "straight!" Player B grumbled about his two pair being no good and shot it into the muck as player A flipped his cards over. He didn't have a straight at all. (And he knew it, grinning wryly). The dealer called the floorman and the floorman (correctly) ruled that since player B's cards were now mixed in the muck (there was no way to remember for sure which face down cards they were), player A had to be awarded the pot. So he was.

But after that, the rest of the table (except me; I kept mum and stayed under the radar) started berating player A. One guy (player C, who also wasn't in the hand) got so mad that he spent the next 6 hands verbally abusing player A. The profanity got worse and worse, and more hilarious. Player C then told the table to raise player A's blind every chance they got, and to always ask the dealer to see every hand he folds.

The next hand, player A folded after the flop and player C asked to see the hand (of course he was refused). This went on so long, the bickering (at a friggin 2/4 table for the love of Christ!), that I had to just leave. But it was also sort of funny, sad, and annoying all at once.

[andyfox]

I thought the rule was that if miscalling your hand results in your opponent mucking, you forfeited the pot to the oppponent. But I guess I'm wrong, or perhaps the floorman didn't know the rule, which wouldn't be the first time. I was once shmoozing with one of the floormen when there was a big dispute at a stud table. The floorman trying to make the ruling didn't know what to do, so he called for the floorman I was schmoozing with to come over, since he's been there a long time and is, apparently, a "senior" floorman. Anyway, the floorman looks at me as they're calling him over and says, "This oughta be good. You probably know the rules better than I do."

[snakehead]

if you miscall your hand and your opponent mucks, you lose. but I wouldn't be surprised if half of the floormen and 75% of the supervisors don't know the rule.