08 all same suit hand

[jlpadge21]

I understand the importance of being suited, but what about when a hand is all the same suit? How much does this detract from the hand? I am only interested in a hand that is already playable.

For example: Is it possible that A Q J 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is no longer playable in a loose game (seems still playable to me)? What about something more marginal like A Q J 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? I know it makes the hand worse for sure, but is it enough to make it not playable?

[GMan42]

I tend to treat 4-flush hands like this as if they were rainbow (IOW, I just disregard the flush possibility). Whether an AQJT or A3QJ is playable anyway is, of course, dependent on your position and the type of game you're in.

[jlpadge21]

Perfect. Thanks.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
what about when a hand is all the same suit? How much does this detract from the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Padge -

If you asked "How much less likely are you to make a flush with four cards in a suit as opposed to two cards in a suit?" the answer is 45%, but how much your hand goes down in value is more complex and not as severe.

After you see your hand but before you see the flop, if you have only two cards in a suit, there are eleven cards left in the pack to possibly use to get three, four, or five cards of that suit on the board.

When you have four cards of the suit in your hand, then there are only nine cards left in the pack from which to possibly end up with three, four, or five cards of that suit on the board.

There are 122562/1712304 ways for board to end up with at least three cards to a flush with two cards of that suit cards in your hand.

There are 92592/1712304 ways for board to end up with at least three cards to a flush with three cards of that suit cards in your hand.

There are 67284/1712304 ways for board to end up with at least three cards to a flush with four cards of that suit cards in your hand.

Thus the flush itself is (122562-67284)/122562 or about 45% less likely to occur for you when you have four cards of the flush suit as opposed to just two. That's figured before the flop. After the flop it would be a different answer.

But your question was "How much does this detract from your hand?" and your hand is not worth 45% less because there are other ways to win besides making a flush.

Simulated hand values go down with more cards than two in your flush draw suit(s), but how much depends on all four of your cards. If you use Wilson's simulator, there are various line-ups of opponents you can choose. Whichever different line-up you use leads to a different result for the decrease in value of your hand.

For the particular line-up I was using yesterday for a $5-$10 game,
A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] earned $325681 in 10,000 trials against eight random hands, while
A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] earned $285871 in 10,000 trials against eight random hands.

By contrast, A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] earned $217648 in 10,000 trials against eight random hands for the same line-up of opponents and
A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] earned $151763 in 10,000 trials against eight random hands for the same line-up.

You can see that the hand with the extra card in the club suit earned less overall than the ace-suited hand with only two cards in the suit, and you can attribute the loss to the extra club in the hand (and also to the lack of a heart which would tend to block an opponent who might be drawing for a heart flush) - but the fraction of the decrease is different for this hand, and also this line-up of opponents, than the fraction of the decrease of another hand and another line-up.

You can also see that the hand with the suited ace fared better than the hand with the suited king as did the hand with three in the flush suit.

You can also see that all the hands with flush possibilities fared better than the non-suited hand.

I didn't run four suited cards, because there's no such thing for A4KK hands, but I feel reasonable certain results for four suited cards fit somewhere between the results for three suited cards and a non-suited hand (because that makes sense and that's where they've been in other simulations).

We're looking for simple answers but sometimes the answers are not simple.

There are trends, but it's difficult to put absolute values on them.

At any rate, a hand with four cards in the suit is clearly worth more than a rainbow hand. Whether it's playable or not depends on what specific four cards involved and also on your opponents.

All the hands I've listed above (all the hands in the A4KK group) are playable against the assortments of opponents I usually encounter.

As to the two specific hands you asked about, A3JQ[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and ATJQ[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], the first is better than the second, but they're both very marginal.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[chaos]

Another reason for the decreased earnings with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is that your third club blocked the second-nut club flush. I would expect to find a smaller decrease with a hand like A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] from A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Another reason for the decreased earnings ... is that your third club blocked the second-nut club flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Chaos - Yes. Good point. Thanks.

Buzz

[KuQuAT]

[ QUOTE ]

We're looking for simple answers but sometimes the answers are not simple.


[/ QUOTE ]

Love the analysis, Buzz. Anything that makes me think a bit has to be good for my game.

One advantage that I haven't seen mentioned is that if you hold A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] x[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] y[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] z[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], then you also stand better chance of someone making the underflush and paying you off. If you live in Looseville, that's not inconsiderable.

As a longtime resident of Looseville (and sometimes visitor to Loseville), I also fall into the (likely wrong) corollary belief that if I have four suited cards to something below the ace, then my non-nut flush won't be out-kicked. That is, holding Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], if the board comes:
T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
I can be "sure" that I'm safer than if I held, say, Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

I believe that I'm safer (because there are two fewer clubs to be with the ace or king, should they be out), but I doubt that I'm nearly as safe as I like to think. Trap hand!

[jlpadge21]

Thanks to everyone who answered, more than I bargained for. I was basically trying to think of a hand that I might fold if it was one suit, and might play otherwise. I've read that A3xx is generally playable (in loose game) if the Ace is suited, but otherwise not. Thus, I was curious if I "lose" that flush draw (which Buzz showed was not exactly true) if it became a general folding hand.

[BradleyT]

A hand like that is situational. If you're in LP and can get in for one bet after multiple limpers I'd go for it.

If you were in EP I'd muck it and wait for a better hand.

[pokerswami]

Buzz:
Thank you for taking the time and effort to give such a long reply to help out fellow players. Many of us read posts such as this to learn without ever letting the posters know we appreciate their efforts.
Thanks again, pokerswami