Hand to Talk About

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Everyone:

I managed to get out last night and played a little $80-$160 hold 'em at The Bellagio. An interesting hand came up which I want to relate here.

First a little background. Our hero in this hand is someone who has been playing this limit for some time now, perhaps a year and a half. She clearly plays too loose and too aggressive, but did nothing but win for most of this time. However, I understand that her good luck has run out on her the past couple of months.

Here's the hand. Before the flop, six players including the blinds were in for one bet each. Our hero was second to last to act on the flop with the player on the button, who I would classify as weak loose, also active. (I had folded my hand before the flop.)

The flop came A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Everyone checked to the player on the button who bet $80. Our hero immediately check raised, even though there were three players still to act before her, and instead of putting in the required amount of $160, she put $320 in chips in front of her. It appeared that not only did she not know it wasn't her turn, but that she thought it was fourth street as well as the flop.

Needless to say it took a little bit of time to straighten this out. But the three players in front of our hero did fold, her bet was changed to $160, and the player on the button did call the raise.

Fourth street was a blank and our hero bet and was called. The river was a queen and again our hero bet and was called. She turned over a queen-ten and the player on the button took the pot with an ace.

All comments welcome.

Best wishes,
Mason

[andyfox]

Ha she pulled this trick before?

[Boopotts]

I of course wasn't there, but this type of play seems to me like less of a trick and more of a habit; i.e., once you start moving your game in this direction it's hard to use this move with discretion.

[Clarkmeister]

I'll ignore the confusion on the flop and focus on the hand.

There are certainly other lines Hero could have taken, but I don't really think this one was bad.

The flop is really the only truly interesting street: Betting vs check raising, check-folding or even, in rare circumstances, check-calling.

I don't think the turn is debatable given the flop action.

On the river I think value betting is also clearly correct.

[slavic]

There are certainly other lines Hero could have taken, but I don't really think this one was bad.

Yes but her action screams shooting an angle doesn't it? The misbet out of order from a player that should know better is going to get her called down by as little as a small pocket pair heads up. Then again would she even try this unless it's worked for her before?

[J_V]

I don't like the river value bet. I also think checking (with the intent) of giving up on the turn is an option.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the river value bet. I also think checking (with the intent) of giving up on the turn is an option.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the river, I don't think you will ever get the player described to bluff a second time. So checking to induce a bluff has no value. However I would expect any pair to call down. If you think that you can safely check-fold, then I'd check, but man is that rare. As far as checking to induce vs value betting, I think value betting is likely superior against a "weak loose" player.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Clark:

But would a weak, loose player bet a pair less than aces on that flop into five other people?

best wishes,
Mason

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Clark:

But would a weak, loose player bet a pair less than aces on that flop into five other people?

best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

I see it all the time. I don't want to start arguing over what "weak" means, but IMO there are few players that won't ever take at least one shot at a board like that once you get past the 30-60 level.

[Erik W]

Making this play often is suicide but once a week or any
rare occasion when the flop comes with a low pair is not wrong to me. Playing a 56s against lots of opponents is reasonable and a check-raise is a strong move. Even though she lost the pot it signals the she will bluff at times.

Playing this early on the session is the one and only time to play it.

She might have won the pot and if she didn't she might get some more calls later on the night.

probably -EV but might be +EV when summing the night up

just some quick thoughts from me,
Erik W