Not-so-great Flop

[Kevin J]

Just got in the game a few hands ago. So far, no flops and I know zilch about any of the players. 3 limpers and I raise from the cutoff with KQo. The sb called. bb folded. 5-way.

Flop is KT8 all spades (I don't have a spade).

bb bets, 1 call, next raises.

Would anyone here fold?

[SA125]

I would Kev. You're TP is at best slightly ahead here, maybe way behind. They don't seem to be worried that you might have the A spade to go with your possible AK.

Steve A.

[Kevin J]

Thanks Steve.

I did fold. I realize I'm probably being results orientated, because I believe the biggest obstacle that prevents me from significantly beating these online games is my propensity to get pushed off winners. I wanted some other opinions.

Btw- I folded and the sb and 1st limper called. The turn was an off 7. The sb checked and now the 1st limper comes to life with a bet. The last guy just calls (and here is where I realized I very possibly folded the best hand), and the sb calls.

The river blanks, the sb checks, and the 1st limper bet again. The last guy folded and the sb called. The limper wins it with two red queens!!

I still think I like my fold, but I'm not 100% sure. It's not how often my hand is best, but how often it will FINISH best on the river.. Still, with only the 3 flush and no good straight draw on the flop, I wonder if I gave it up a little too early for a Party 15-30 game.

[SA125]

"I realize I'm probably being results orientated, because I believe the biggest obstacle that prevents me from significantly beating these online games is my propensity to get pushed off winners"


Funny you say that. I find the hardest thing about playing online is the swings. They're almost predictable and I'm learning to manage the bad ones.

The challenge of playing good poker isn't anywhere near the challenge of not getting lost in the downward swings. That's because the worst part of the bad runs isn't bad cards. It's the big hands only holding up about 10% of the time during that stretch. That's the killer.

It's one thing to avoid marginal hands. It's another to release big pairs over and over again. When they're not hitting, none of them hit. When you can't rely on AA or KK for at least some pots, it can get to you. JJ being the biggest culprit.

BTW - It's tough to argue with astro and I don't know about the 15-30, but on the Party 10-20, there's more good players than bad. Action like that would be trouble for that K.

Steve A.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
"I realize I'm probably being results orientated, because I believe the biggest obstacle that prevents me from significantly beating these online games is my propensity to get pushed off winners"


Funny you say that. I find the hardest thing about playing online is the swings. They're almost predictable and I'm learning to manage the bad ones.

The challenge of playing good poker isn't anywhere near the challenge of not getting lost in the downward swings. That's because the worst part of the bad runs isn't bad cards. It's the big hands only holding up about 10% of the time during that stretch. That's the killer.

It's one thing to avoid marginal hands. It's another to release big pairs over and over again. When they're not hitting, none of them hit. When you can't rely on AA or KK for at least some pots, it can get to you. JJ being the biggest culprit.

BTW - It's tough to argue with astro and I don't know about the 15-30, but on the Party 10-20, there's more good players than bad. Action like that would be trouble for that K.

[/ QUOTE ]

The dude who cold called with queens before the flop then bet into like 5 opponents when *this* flop came is a good player? The Party 15/30 players might not have the obvious flaws of the loose passives down at the cardroom, but they give way too much action, and that flaw is plenty exploitable. One of the ways you should try and exploit is is by seeing a lot of showdowns when the pot is large and you have a decent hand.

[SA125]

Nate, I think our lines and points got a little crossed here. If I read it right, the guy limped PF with QQ, then called the sb and got raised on the flop, then led the turn. Where does it say in the quote he was a good player? I was talking about players in the 10-20 in general.

Kev didn't say where or what stakes the hand was played. The 15-30 reference I made was from steve's point about the play there. I've also seen it written here plenty of times before that the 10-20 is tighter and more of a grind than the 15-30.

Steve A.

[astroglide]

i would probably cold-call, raise a non-spade turn, and fold to a threebet

[Kevin J]

[ QUOTE ]
i would probably cold-call,

[/ QUOTE ]

And you (no probably about it), do much better than me online.

I had a similar plan... I was going to call the flop bet and raise a blank on the turn. But between the bettor, the caller, and then the raise, I got thrown off. I figured that I didn't want to get overly involved with this board and against multiple opponents.

So this begs the question... How big of a mistake was this fold and how important is it to win this hand (which I would have), instead of being pushed off it? Would you say this particular hand is not that big a deal, or it is definitely a big deal if I ever hope to be a significant winner at Party's 15-30 games? I'd appreciate your input. Thanks.

[steveyz]

I think that at the typical party 15/30 tables, calling and raising the turn, or 3-betting the flop are +EV, and it's not that close. If you had KJ, the decision would be much closer. Folding here is giving up too much, IMHO.

[Kevin J]

Thanks. That's what I was looking for. So making these types of folds CAN be disasterous and might be what's preventing better results online.

FWIW- I AM beating the games, just not for that much. Actually, my win rate is pretty pathetic given what I do in live games. This was a over a $400 pot and it's easy to see if I go on to win this hand more than my share of times, I am giving up way too much.

It's just curious to me how this can be a pretty easy and clear fold so often in a live game, but so clearly wrong when playing online. Like I said, all opponents were unkown. Had I known a little more about the players (like the 1st limper could've had 2nd pair that contained two red cards), I certainly wouldn't have folded. Thanks again.