Applying a concept made easy?

[MoreWineII]

4/8 Live.

Just sat down, zero reads. Well, that's not true, I knew a couple of the players. The only player I knew in this hand was a middle-aged lady who is wonderfully loose-passive. I love her, I really do. In fact, I had changed tables just so I could sit with her. Anyway...

Hero is UTG with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Hero raises, some folds, MP calls, some more folds, Button, SB, and BB call.

5 players to a flop of 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls (?), MP folds, button calls, SB calls.

4 players to the turn, A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB checks, BB bets (he's almost all-in), Hero raises, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

3 to the river which was a blank of blankity-blank. Check, bet, fold, BB raises his last two chips. I contemplate. Haha, no I don't, I call immediately.

BB shows A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and MHIG.

I was planning on raising the turn no matter what fell. Help me out here - should I be raising the turn even if a diamond falls? Obviously the perfect card made things a lot easier. Was this a good application of this concept or should I just go ahead and raise the flop?

[MoreWineII]

This is a concept that I'm struggling to apply and you're going to help me with it, so help me...

[img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

You must raise the flop on this draw heavy board. Get rid of all those gutshots and singleton high diamonds.

Turn raise is good. If it was a diamond, a raise is still good, if you get 3-bet then you can call down.

[Rubeskies]

Well the problem here is that nobody with two diamonds here is going to fold on the flop or the turn even if its two bets to them. So I think you should raise the flop in an effort to knock out anyone with 1 high dimaond or a gutshot who might stick around with a backdoor flush draw who might fold two bets but call for one. He'll fold the turn if he whiffs regardless, and he'll call two cold if he now has a 4 flush.

Anyone agree/disagree with this line?


Opps, Challenger beat me to it.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Well the problem here is that nobody with two diamonds here is going to fold on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear this a lot, and I think I know why. People always think that you want draws to fold when you don't necessairly. What you do want to do is make them make mistakes. Just like betting and giving a draw 15-1 to call is better than checking and giving them infinite odds, raising here and giving them 6.5-1 is better than calling and giving them 12-1. While they're still correct to call with a flush draw, they would be wrong to do so with a gutshot or high diamond. You have to give these draws a chance to make mistakes.

[Rubeskies]

[ QUOTE ]
While they're still correct to call with a flush draw, they would be wrong to do so with a gutshot or high diamond. You have to give these draws a chance to make mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]


That's why I said raise the flop.

[Evan]

I know, I just wanted to point out to a lot of people that flush draws staying in is not a bad thing for you. If you knew they would fold it would obviously make the hand easier to play, but haveing them call is more profitbale since you are still going to be a big favorite.

[Rubeskies]

Oh ok, yeah I see your point. I agree that people do make that misconception a lot. They probably get too carried away with the notion that the pot is large so how can I win it now. You want to make the play with the most EV+. Number of pots won doesn't matter. Big Bets won does.

[Evan]

It's hard to put BB on a flush draw since he would likely check-raise the flop because of your PF raise. More likely he flopped a pair. I'd rather see you raise the flop to charge flush draws and straight draws behind you. Turn and river are obviously right.

[MicroBob]

This is off-topic but I'm an off-topic kind of guy:


[ QUOTE ]
It's hard to put BB on a flush draw since he would likely check-raise the flop because of your PF raise.

[/ QUOTE ]


Why? Because that's what you would do? Unless you know the BB personally and have been giving him lessons and told him to play it this way I just don't think you can reasonably say that he would 'LIKELY check-raise the PF raiser with a flush-draw'.


Just because it's something YOU might do doesn't mean that typical Party players would do it.

IMO, most 'typical' players would not C/R. They would either bet of call.


I think this is a common problem with hand-reading on these forums....too many think of the way THEY would play it or the way they THINK it should be played and apply those standards to their opponents.

Not only should you account for the possibility that your players might play unorthodoxically or less than ideally, I suggest that you should count on it.