Make it STOP!

[Kopefire]

Ok .. I'm starting to get really ticked off . . .

This is happennig to me more and more in NL and PL SNG's, and it makes no sense:

I'll be in the chip lead, or close to it, and I'll get in a pot with myself, another tall stack person and someone on a short stack. Once the short stack goes all in, and we both call . .. after the flop, turn whataever the other tall stack will bet into the pot.

WTF?!

Don't they get that when you are getting close to the money it is to their benefit to have as as many hands in the pot as possible -- what matters is thinning the field not getting the most money in that particular pot?

The only person that benefits is the short-stacked, all-in player. They get one less hand they have to beat in the pot.

It's a -ev move. Why in the name of shredded wheat do people keep doing this? Do they not know the goal of an SNG is to finish in the money?!

[Guernica4000]

Funny, that just last night I benefited greatly from this play when I was all in short stack (A6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) vs. the two blinds. The flopped missed me 278 Rainbow and the SB auto checked the BB bet into the pot. SB called a 3 flopped and BB bet again making SB fold AK. The BB showed QQ and to my great happiness I saw an A on the river. I ended up winning that tournament thanks to BB dumb play.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[adanthar]

The QQ was absolutely right to do this, and if you don't do it you cost yourself money. What if you actually had 99?

The stupid time to do this is when you have completely missed the flop, not when you have a made but vulnerable hand.

[AlmightyJay]

I think it's usually an attempt to push the other person out of the main pot, not to pad the side pot..

[Kopefire]

But pushing them out of the main pot benefits the short stack player MORE than it benefits the other tall stack player.

If the short stack player loses, you're one more player closer to the money. If they win, they have new life and now you might have endangered your own position in the game.

By keeping multiple opponents, you make it so the short stack player has to beat more hands. You make it harder for them to survive, which increases the likelyhood that you'll see the money yourself.

Anyway you slice it, it's a bad play.

[Richard Tanner]

I agree, the only way I bet into a pot with a player all-in is if I have a lock (flopped a full house or better) or because of a previous PF raise there is a side pot. In the case of a side pot it's fair game.

Cody

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

In a S&G with rapidly increasing blinds, there are many other considerations. If you have a made hand, betting at the pot to force the other big stack out of the hand or to build a side pot can be far better EV than the possibility that your opponent may knock out the small stack if you miss. For example, if I flop TPTK and there is a flush draw on the board, I will bet. Yes, there is a possibility that the short stack has me beat with a set or an overpair, but I don't want to give the other big stack a chance to win a pot that is mine.

Of course, you NEVER bluff at a dry or very small side pot. That is plain stupid.

[mscott2374]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, you NEVER bluff at a dry or very small side pot. That is plain stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are actually instances where you would want to bluff at a dry pot. One being where you were a very large stack & were trying to keep the small stack in @ bubble time. This would enable you to make more steal attempts. I believe that Jason Strasser made an excellent post on this subject.

I am not saying that this should always be done, just that there are times when it is profitable IMHO

[mackthefork]

Is this a joke, if not i think you need to have a rethink, if i hit the flop and i think i can bet and get rid of a player who can outdraw me later in the hand i will bet. To do anything else is at best stupid and at worse collusion.

Regards Mack

[reecelights]

If your hand is good enough to call a push, why don't you reraise to keep others from calling? While it is a goal to eliminate players, it should also be people's goal not to double, triple, or quadruple a short stack up. It drives me crazy how many players (at low level, Party) will call with 95o, just to try to get lucky and eliminate.

I also agree with the raise to push people out. I'm more concerned at this point with my stack than the short stack. If I have a hand and don't want to wait and see if I get outdrawn, I want that pot. I won't make bad calls of all-ins, and I won't bluff at the pot. But, if I'm in 4th, I want to get ITM, if I'm leader, I want to increase to give myself a better chance head-up at finishing 1st.