Big Endian made me post this out of shame...

Fnord · #1 09-03-2004, 12:41 AM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is SB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button folds, Fnord completes, BB (BigEdian) checks.

Flop: (5 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Fnord checks, BigEdian bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, CO folds, Fnord calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Fnord checks, BigEdian bets, UTG calls, Fnord raises, BigEdian calls, UTG folds.

River: (9 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Fnord bets, BigEdian calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results in white below: 
BigEdian shows 4s Jh (two pair, jacks and fours).
Fnord shows 5h 6c (straight, eight high).
Outcome: Fnord wins 11 BB.

Monty Cantsin · #2 09-03-2004, 01:40 AM

What's shameful about it?

/mc

BigEndian · #3 09-03-2004, 08:32 AM

Shame is a little strong. I thought it was an interesting hand, especially the flop call. A draw to a non-nut straight on a three flush board. I wouldn't make this call and I don't see the value long term in making it - even getting 7-1 closing the action. Some of your outs are tainted, and even if you make your hand on the turn, there are obvious redraws out there against you that are tough not to pay off. I'm interested in other opinions.

- Jim

MrHorace · #4 09-03-2004, 11:03 AM

I would seriously question the preflop call, let alone the flop call. Unsuited, low, connectors in SB position??? It's a fold for me without a doubt.

sfer · #5 09-03-2004, 11:30 AM

In a 1/2 blind structure the preflop call is pretty straightforward.

sfer · #6 09-03-2004, 11:31 AM

The key here, I think, is the combination of possibly drawing dead and having obvious redraws if you hit. That probably switches the decision to fold for me.

MrHorace · #7 09-03-2004, 12:12 PM

sfer, that's my thought exactly. Even if you do hit something you are most likely behind the whole way or on the verge. So this could get expensive.

Now a thought to ponder. If these were suited we would of course pay to see the flop. Does being suited really give that much an edge here? If you flop a flush pat or draw, you may still be behind. Of course the bet sequence would tell you where you stand. And if you hit the straight, are you that much better off? Hmmm.

Curious as to peoples' thoughts on this.

GrunchCan · #8 09-03-2004, 12:52 PM

The pre-flop call is borderline. Bad cards, but long odds. rule of 5 & 10. But I don't think it matters much, really. The call cost you only 1/2 a bet.

More important is your action on the flop. I don't like the call. If you make your hand, you are either way ahead or way behind, which gives your holding dubious value.

Fold to get away if you have a read, or RAISE to protect your hand. But don't call.

[ QUOTE ]
If you flop a flush pat or draw, you may still be behind. Of course the bet sequence would tell you where you stand. And if you hit the straight, are you that much better off? Hmmm.

[/ QUOTE ]

the betting might not tell you where you are at if you flop a flush. a big draw might semi-bluff. top pair/top kicker might lead or call along. 2 pair should protect his hand by raising before the turn, and a set would play fast thinking he has the best of it. you have to consider the odds of someone else having flopped a flush - slim. you will loose sometimes to flush over flush, but not too often. be aggressive with your flush.

sfer · #9 09-03-2004, 12:59 PM

Huh?

RoodyPooh · #10 09-03-2004, 01:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold to get away if you have a read, or RAISE to protect your hand. But don't call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I read the wrong thread, but I would love to know how raising in this spot would protect your 6 high.