Let Me Get This Straight

[adios]

The Kerry die hards state that:

Kerry's service in Viet Nam is better, more honorable, what have you than Bush having strings pulled to serve in the National Guard.

Kerry was right about wide spread atrocities in Viet Nam and that official military policy more or less created the atmosphere that led to these atrocities and that the military condoned such activity. Basically they seem to hold the position that Viet Nam was an unjust, morally wrong war.


My question is why is Kerry's conduct regarding Viet Nam better, more honorable, what have you than Bush's ie why do the die hard Kerry supporters feel it is better to serve and participate in a morally wrong and unjust war where atrocitiess are widespread than to avoid serving in such a war?

[SnakeRat]

Kerry volunteering to risk his life for his country demonstrates bravery and patriotism.

Bush pulled strings in order to not get shipped out, then didn't even show up for the easy duty he was assigned.
Bush's actions demonstrate cowardice and a lack of responsibility.

Bush didn't avoid serving because the war was unjust, he avoided serving because he wanted to party.

[Stu Pidasso]

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Kerry volunteering to risk his life for his country demonstrates bravery and patriotism.

Bush pulled strings in order to not get shipped out, then didn't even show up for the easy duty he was assigned.
Bush's actions demonstrate cowardice and a lack of responsibility.

Bush didn't avoid serving because the war was unjust, he avoided serving because he wanted to party.

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On the face of it Kerry's record seems more honorable. However we won't be able to make a truely fair comparison until we see all of Kerry's record, not just what he spoon feeds us off his website.

Stu

[adios]

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Kerry volunteering to risk his life for his country demonstrates bravery and patriotism.

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You could say exactly the same thing about a Nazi joining the Wehrmact. The German Army routinely committed atrocities. If one knows that military policy is to engage in widespread atrocities that in mind makes them a willing participant.

[Cyrus]

Here it is, in black and white pixels on your screen :

John Kerry believed the war in Vietnam was just and that his country was right to fight it. He promptly went to fight in the war and did not shirk from his duty, nor did he show cowardice in the face of the enemy.

Subsequently, what he saw in that war made him re-think his unthinkingly patriotic position and turn him into an oponent of the war. He went on to denounce it and rveeal a number of atrocities he had witnessed or taken part in.

You can't get more decent than that.

George W Bush also supported the war in Vietnam, perhaps even more passionately than John Kerry! But, instead of going in to fight in the war he believed in, he allowed his family to pull strings and place him in the relative safety of the Air National Guard. Possibly this assignment was more dangerous than being in the Delta rice puddies, and Bush had to protect the Houston skies from communist pilots flying over. We will never know. (To add insult to injury, the official records of Bush's military service do not exactly confirm his version of events, to say the least. It is quite possible that he did not serve out the full extent of even that safe gig.)

Bush subsequently went on to denounce those who protested against the Vietnam war, including the war's veterans, as "traitors" and "cowards". A practice that is being nobly still carried on today, against John Kerry, by Bush camp-supported groups, like the Swift Liars Group.

You can't get more hypocritical than that.

...People change. The task is to change for the better. Kerry served his country (even if all his medals are to be ignored) and then changed his mind, on grounds of decency and conviction. Bush did not change. He is still the same. But some people admire this quality in a man.

[theBruiser500]

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John Kerry believed the war in Vietnam was just and that his country was right to fight it. He promptly went to fight in the war and did not shirk from his duty, nor did he show cowardice in the face of the enemy.

Subsequently, what he saw in that war made him re-think his unthinkingly patriotic position and turn him into an oponent of the war. He went on to denounce it and rveeal a number of atrocities he had witnessed or taken part in.

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exactly. and really, i think the fact that he then went against the war after having served in it shows a lot more courage and principle than remaining mute on the subject.

[Utah]

He went on to denounce it and rveeal a number of atrocities he had witnessed or taken part in.

Name one atrocity he revealed. Kerry couldnt name one on Dick Cavett and he cant name one now unless I have missed something. Please enlighten me if I had.

You say "taken part in". Are you saying Kerry committed war crimes? If so, shouldnt he be prosecuted? I dont believe there is a statute of limitations on war crimes is there?

"You can't get more decent than that"
So, if you denounce the war crimes you committed then you are a stand up guy?

he allowed his family to pull strings and place him in the relative safety of the Air National Guard
Strong assertion. Any proof? I know. I know. There is none. But boy I am sure it is fun to say.

To add insult to injury, the official records of Bush's military service do not exactly confirm his version of events, to say the least. It is quite possible that he did not serve out the full extent of even that safe gig.
Um. Yes they do. Prove otherwise. I know. I know. You cant. But I am sure it is fun to say.

A practice that is being nobly still carried on today, against John Kerry, by Bush camp-supported groups, like the Swift Liars Group.
Strong assertion. Any proof? I know. I know. There is none. But boy I am sure it is fun to say.

Also, why is it okay to completely trash veterans who support Bush and to call then vial names while veterans who support Kerry are simply to be believed. Is it not possible that those supporting Kerry could be engaging in the same kind of lies that you claim the Swift Boat Vets are engaging in? Do you not think that the Kerry Vets are not Democrats?

and then changed his mind, on grounds of decency and conviction
To you have an inside view to the workings of John Kerry's mind? It couldnt be that he was simply engaging in political opportunism?

Let me ask you. Did you support Bob Dole when he went against Clinton? I mean, you had a war verteran who was actually wounded in combat versus a pure draft dodger. I mean, even if Bush took an easy path it certainly was a hell of a lot better than what Clinton did. Did that make Clinton unworthy of serving?

The whole "bush didnt serve and Kerry did so Kerry is better" is a completely silly argument and its completely disingenuous of the liberal crowd. This same group bashing Bush would still welcome Clinton back with open arms.

The question is not one of service. Lets even stipulate that Kerry's service was "better" than Bush's. That in no way exempts Kerry's record from being scutinized (and to be be honest, Bushes record should be scrutinized as well). Kerry has basically said - "I am fit to command because of my vietnam experience". Okay - lets examine that service then to see if it is so. Bush is not saying "I am fit to command because of my national guard experience". So, it should take less relevance - although it is not completely unimportant.

To illustrate the point. Lets say you and I were both fighting for a job. I argued that I should have the job because I have 10 years of rock solid experience in the field, even though I went to a community college and I was a complete screwoff during that times. You argued that you should get the job because, even though you had less experience, you went to harvard college, got a stanford MBA, and busted your ass during that time. So, the employer says okay, lets examine your Harvard and Stanford credentials since that is what you are basing your qualifications on. Now, it comes to light that you lied about some of your credentials and you behaved inappropriately during that time. You couldnt say, "well, my school credentials cannot be questioned because my opponent went to a community college during that time!!" Why is a voters examination of Kerry's Vietnam experience any different.?

[vulturesrow]

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John Kerry believed the war in Vietnam was just and that his country was right to fight it.

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Wrong. Kerry showed anti-war leanings even before he graduate college.

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He promptly went to fight in the war

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...right after his deferment request to go study in Paris for a year was denied. Lets not also forget that Kerry met with Vietnamese negotiators which is illegal for a civilian, and doubly so since he was still in the Naval Reserves.

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George W Bush also supported the war in Vietnam, perhaps even more passionately than John Kerry! But, instead of going in to fight in the war he believed in, he allowed his family to pull strings and place him in the relative safety of the Air National Guard. Possibly this assignment was more dangerous than being in the Delta rice puddies, and Bush had to protect the Houston skies from communist pilots flying over. We will never know. (To add insult to injury, the official records of Bush's military service do not exactly confirm his version of events, to say the least. It is quite possible that he did not serve out the full extent of even that safe gig.)


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I dont think Bush or his campaign has ever said that his service in the Guard was more dangerous than going to the rice paddies in Vietnam. That being said, tactical aviation isnt risk free by any stretch. Bush's records seem to support his account perfectly well if one knows how Guard service works and can tell the difference between standard administrative forms and punitive forms. His commitment was for six years, he came in just short of that after requesting an early discharge (which as Ive said before, was commonplace at that time).

Now that being said, this is whole Vietnam he said she said crap is really getting old. My head starts to hurt whenever I see another piece about this whole mes, no matter what side you are on.

chris

[CORed]

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Now that being said, this is whole Vietnam he said she said crap is really getting old. My head starts to hurt whenever I see another piece about this whole mes, no matter what side you are on.

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I couldn't agree with you more. Both sides seem to be using this Vietnam stuff to avoid talking about important issues.

[adios]

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John Kerry believed the war in Vietnam was just and that his country was right to fight it.

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Not according to his testimony in 1971, the interview on Meet the Press that I cited, and his subsequent participation in the Viet Nam Vets Against the War movement.