How to play the bitch-straight?

[gergery]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t600 (3 handed). Final 3 of 30-person $30 tourney. Big stack was bit Laggy, small stack alittle too tight.

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="C00000">Hero (t9298)</font>
<font color="C00000">BB (t14164)</font>
Button (t6538)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Button calls t600, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t1800) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, Button checks.

Turn: (t1800) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets t700</font>, BB calls t700, Button folds.

River: (t3200) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets t7998 (All-In)</font>, BB calls t7998.

Final Pot: t19196
<font color="green">Main Pot: t19196 (t19196), between Hero and BB.</font>

[daryn]

uhhhhh seems like you played it perfectly!

[adanthar]

Fold preflop.

Since you flopped just about the only hand you can feel good about, bet the flop. You can't slowplay this; the BB saw a free flop and could very well have a 2-3 or 7-8. If any of those come on the turn your hand just lost a ton of value. (This doesn't even mention the button, who is obviously weak/tight but could very well have limped with 44-66.)

The turn puts a flush draw on board against two people that've now seen *four* cards for free. You need to bet more than 700- I'd start with at least 1200 or so.

The stunning thing is that BB called the river. Unless you had a *really* good read, this is too big. Bet something you think he'll actually call (but if he's *that* much of a gambler, fine.)

[t_perkin]

[ QUOTE ]

Fold preflop.


[/ QUOTE ]

No way. You are getting 5:1 on the call and it is only 1/30th of your stack. There are plenty of occasions that you can win money here.

[ QUOTE ]

Since you flopped just about the only hand you can feel good about, bet the flop. You can't slowplay this; the BB saw a free flop and could very well have a 2-3 or 7-8. If any of those come on the turn your hand just lost a ton of value. (This doesn't even mention the button, who is obviously weak/tight but could very well have limped with 44-66.)


[/ QUOTE ]

This is 3 handed!!! there is no way you can play so scared. A straight, even a bottom straight is near enough a monster 3 handed. Between the big stack BB and the button I would expect a flop bet from one of them at least 75% of the time. The only question then is whether to check-raise the flop or hold on for the turn.

I agree with daryn. You played this pretty spot on. 3 handed you can't be running scared from a possible higher straight.

Tim

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
there is no way you can play so scared. A straight, even a bottom straight is near enough a monster 3 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]
The problem is that it's a vulnerable monster. This really is not the time to slowplay, because there are many turn cards which will make you lose confidence in your hand. Going for a checkraise is okay but you'd want to make it a big checkraise.

A little better than checkraising would be to bet the flop, hoping to get raised so you could reraise. There's an important "meta" reason why I prefer this: we're playing three-handed, so lots of times when the flop misses me I am going to be betting out in first position as a bluff or semibluff. I want my opponents to know, for future reference, that I might have flopped a monster when I bet the flop from the small blind.

Certainly check-calling this flop (i.e. slowplaying) would be a mistake.

Given that Gergery checked the flop and it was checked around, he really does need to make a substantial bet on the turn, more than 700. That queen of hearts is a great card for Gergery, because now anybody with a queen will (at least) call a reasonable bet, and someone with a heart draw might as well. One of the reasons to bet more on the turn is to make the pot big enough that on the river, you can go allin and it won't be too disproportionate. (Of course if the river is a heart, or a 6 or 7, you might not go allin.) I agree with Adanthar that it's surprising your opponent called your allin on the river. I assume he had two pair?

As for preflop, I think it's pretty close between folding and calling. I'd tend to call but I'm not sure that's correct.

[gergery]

I like MBE’s analysis a lot.

Preflop, I’m getting 43:1 implied odds on my call with button and 93:1 from BB, which is enough overlay since I’ll flop a monster around 25:1. I figured I could take a good chunk from bigstack LAG if I hit, and might be able to run over button if I just caught part of it on say K62 flop. I think call is correct here, but fold is not terrible.

On the flop, I checked because I was sure LAG was going to bet, having either caught part of it or having overcards. I also figured button for mid-small pair or medium suited connectors and though he might bet with trips/twopair/gut+overs. I wanted to LAG to think twice about betting my checks in the future, as he’d just doubled up thru me and was starting to bully. As it turns out, LAG didn’t bet only because he also caught a good hand and slowplayed it. Typically, I think betting is correct here since any 8-2 makes me squirm, and might be correct anyway.

On turn, I wanted to appear weak to induce a bluff from LAG. I figured TP or Ax/Kx hearts would raise me.

On river, I tried to look like I was buying it with a bluff. Sadly, Villian had 87o for the flopped nut straight. Oh well.

The fact that I hit the monster and still lost makes me re-evaluate alittle bit my preflop call. Before this hand I was with Soss for sure – I call very often. After, I’m more with MBE – call probably correct but its closer, as I have to factor in losing my stack the small % of time I get a monster but hit a bigger monster.

--Greg

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that I hit the monster and still lost makes me re-evaluate alittle bit my preflop call. Before this hand I was with Soss for sure – I call very often. After, I’m more with MBE – call probably correct but its closer, as I have to factor in losing my stack the small % of time I get a monster but hit a bigger monster.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think there's a subtle point to be made. Flopping a set is a +EV situation. Flopping a straight, even the wrong end of it, is a +EV situation. Flopping two pair, even bottom 2 pair, is a +EV situation.
Are any of these situations unbeatable? No, of course not. However, the only thing you can try to do in a MTT is consistantly put yourself in +EV situations. Therefore, I think you need to evaluate the preflop call in terms of how many times you are going to flop a +EV situation vs. how much the pot is laying you. That's it. The rest is just luck.

[fnurt]

The thing about implied odds is that it's not enough for your opponent to have a big stack. You must also have confidence that you will get a lot of it. Neither the button's limp or the BB's check shows a lot of interest in the hand. Sure, you'll get action if the flop is K32 and one of them has KQ, but that's only a small subset of the times you flop 2 pair or better. A lot of times, you will hit a big hand and they will simply fold and give you nothing.

You need a pretty remarkable situation to win someone's whole stack here, so I really think you can't count on such huge implied odds.

[t_perkin]

[ QUOTE ]

A little better than checkraising would be to bet the flop, hoping to get raised so you could reraise. There's an important "meta" reason why I prefer this: we're playing three-handed, so lots of times when the flop misses me I am going to be betting out in first position as a bluff or semibluff. I want my opponents to know, for future reference, that I might have flopped a monster when I bet the flop from the small blind.
[ QUOTE ]


Yes I suppose it is dependent on your table image. If you are regularly betting out of the SB (which I am no criticising at all) then yes betting again here seems sensible.

I tend not to bet out of the SB so much, possibly a failing. So with my image a bet here will take the pot down there and then too often, which I think would be a real pity here.
We have invested very little, the pot is not that big, if we have to give it up on the turn after a failed check-raise then it is really not the end of the world.

With the laggy bb I would go for the check raise here, you might even trap the button, and yes I would make it a big one. I take back the comment about waiting for the turn, that would be a mistake.
Do you think this is a bad play? or just not as good as a bet looking for a raise?
How much do you bet here?
If you do get to reraise are you looking to raise the player out of the hand then and there?

tim

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
With the laggy bb I would go for the check raise here, you might even trap the button, and yes I would make it a big one. I take back the comment about waiting for the turn, that would be a mistake.
Do you think this is a bad play? or just not as good as a bet looking for a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]
If the player on my left really is that aggressive, and I'm almost sure he will bet if I check (but may well fold if I bet and he doesn't have much), then going for the checkraise would be the better play in my view.

[ QUOTE ]
How much do you bet here?

[/ QUOTE ]
If I had decided to bet out, instead of checkraising, I'd bet 1200 probably (2/3 the pot) since it's a rainbow flop. If the flop had a potential flush draw, my bet would be greater, maybe 1500 to 1800.

[ QUOTE ]
If you do get to reraise are you looking to raise the player out of the hand then and there?

[/ QUOTE ]
No, I'd want the checkraise to be as much as I think he would call if he has A6 (TPTK). It's a bit hard to get specific in the abstract, because shorthanded play is so psychological -- so much depends on what you've seen the other players do and what they've seen you do. So for example, suppose that on a previous hand this player saw me put in a big raise on a raggedy flop with just overcards, AK or something. Then I'm also going to put in a big raise here with the flopped straight. But if he hasn't seen me make any big raises before, I will be more restrained now.