Foxwoods 5-5 NL hand

[mikech]

Since this was a live game I'm not sure if I recall the details exactly right, but they should be close enough.

I bought in for $400, the game's pretty loose and I guess I loosened up along with it, so by the time this hand occurred I had been whittled down to about $225. I'm dealt QJdiamonds in MP, there's a raise to $15 in front of me, and I call. The button re-raises $35 more, the blinds fold, the original raiser calls, and I call as well. The button had over 1k at the table and was very aggressive, raising often and not necessarily with much of anything. The flop comes J-8-6, all hearts. EP checks in front of me, but before I can act, the button bets $100 and EP folds. A player not in the hand points out that the bet (and subsequent fold) was out of turn. The dealer makes the button retrieve his bet, and after thinking about it, I decide I have the best hand and push all-in for the $175 or so I have left. Then the button says, "Why would you do that? I was stabbing at the pot with a small pocket pair. Now I almost feel guilty for folding" and folds. I asked if he had a heart and he said no. Of course I take his comments with a grain of salt, but the possibility of him telling the truth would actually be consistent with the way the hand played out.

So, how bad was my play? Forget the loose preflop call, I felt the table was loose and I might very well have had the best starting hand. I'm more questioning my decision to move in after his out-of-turn bet. My stack was just about the size of the pot at that point, I didn't think he could beat top pair yet, but I thought he might've had one or more overcards with a heart, making us about a coinflip to win the hand. Knowing he was going to bet, should I have checked and raised all-in, or just move in like I did? His fold was unexpected, I honestly thought we were just going to show our cards down and run it.

[scrub]

If I thought my pair was good, I would have checkraised all in.

I would have folded preflop.

scrub

[turnipmonster]

what scrub said. you should really play a bigger stack than 225 in a game like that. 500 is about the minimum.

--turnipmonster

[ML4L]

[ QUOTE ]
what scrub said. you should really play a bigger stack than 225 in a game like that. 500 is about the minimum.

--turnipmonster

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is how the dude plays, I think that putting MORE money on the table is the LAST thing that he should do... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Fold preflop. Both times.

On the flop, if you read him for a steal, I think that moving in is more of a viable option than people are giving credit for. The money is so shallow that a check-raise ties him to the pot, and his equity on even some crappy hands (like 4h4x and Ah9x) is enough that you want him out. It's 50-50ish that he has a heart, so that probably isn't enough to make up for the $100 that you make every time that he has nothing, but it's at least something to consider.

FOLD PREFLOP.

ML4L

[turnipmonster]

lol. good point.

--turnipmonster

[mikech]

Yes, yes, it was a very loose preflop call, but I had earlier seen the guy raise to $50 with Q3o and also call a $75 pf raise with 45o. Later on in the night, he acted out of turn again: I had AKo, two limpers in front, I was considering what amount to raise it to when he raised to $40 from the button. We were both deeper at that point, I'd tightened up and worked to almost $900 while he must've had over $1500. This time, knowing he was raising, I limped for $5, re-raised him $100 more and he folded.

So, question on the rules: his $100 bet out of turn should have been made to stay in the pot? The dealer asked him to retrieve it to allow me to act, I didn't know what the proper ruling should've been and didn't ask the floor to come over. If I had checked, clearly I understand his bet would've been made to stand, but the fact that I bet out, was his $100 required to remain out there?

[Zag]

Certainly, if you checked, then he would have had to make the bet. Otherwise, people would be shooting this angle all day -- push out a big raise when there is someone still to act before you, then pull it back and check behind.

With you betting out, I'm not sure what the ruling should be, but you would have a decent case to make if you had wanted to insist that the bet must remain.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
The money is so shallow that a check-raise ties him to the pot, and his equity on even some crappy hands (like 4h4x and Ah9x) is enough that you want him out. It's 50-50ish that he has a heart, so that probably isn't enough to make up for the $100 that you make every time that he has nothing, but it's at least something to consider.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been out all day and just got back, but I've been mulling this over since I left the house and realized it was way closer than I thought at first.

My final conclusion was that as long as the guy was enough of a putz to be on heartless air some of the time he made this play, Mike was better off checkraising to make up for the times he's putting his money in drawing extremely thin. Obviously it all depends on the distribution of hands the guy is betting with, but if I somehow ended up in this situation and somehow felt as confident about my pair as Mike did, that would indicate that the guy was often going to have very little equity, so I still like checkraising.

Either way, the lesson is obviously that the mistakes you make early in a big-bet hand are often far more important than the decisions you make later. The decison to checkraise or push is pretty meaningless, in the sense that there's probably very little difference in EV. The decision that got Mike into the position in the first place was terrible, and cost much more than playing the flop "wrong."

I played a few hundred hours with Mike at UB last year, and I'm certain he knows better than to make this call. While he was lucky to get away with it this time, I think it's a good example of how making a mistake early in a hand, particularly when it comes to considering one's stack size relative to the preflop betting, can make a skilled player look just like an inexperienced player on later streets.

scrub

[Cohiba Al]

Interesting move. If you think you have the best hand, then it was a good one. If you are bluffing to take it then, you might screw yourself. What if someone at the table informed the dealer that, although bet out of turn, the $100 dollars had to remain as a bet/call and the player who made it must either match the $175 all-in of yours or fold? If he decides to match instead of sacrifice the original $100... you could get outdrawn.

IMO a bet made out of turn still stands. It's his own fault for betting out of turn and cannot withdraw it. Otherwise an angle move like this could be used to manipulate others into folding in front of the player (I go all-in.. out of turn? Sorry, I check instead). Consequently, if you had wanted that $100 on the table then you should have informed the dealer that his bet out of turn stood, forcing him to lay down or call the additional $75.

[AJo Go All In]

IMO a bet made out of turn still stands... if you had wanted that $100 on the table then you should have informed the dealer that his bet out of turn stood, forcing him to lay down or call the additional $75.

yeah, you're right, he really should have informed the dealer of Cohiba Al's opinion, despite the fact that a bet out of turn doesn't stand at most casinos.