When to start stealing blinds?

[ozyman]

I play small buy in MTTs on Pokerstars and usually don't start to even attempt a steal until we have hit the ante stage at 100/200 25 ante. I figure any earlier than that the risk/reward isn't there. Should I start earlier/later?
Thoughts?
Thanks.

[Chief911]

All depends on how easy your table will give them up, and how big your stack is. I usually start around 50/100.

Nick

[woodguy]

Go to the top of the page and type in "steal" or "stealing" in the search function.
There are many good threads in the archives that deal with this issue.

A quick take is that essentially its a function of stack size vs. blind size vs. position.

happy hunting,
woodguy

[Kirkrrr]

I think this may not be very relevant to the small buy-in MTTs you're talking about (and which I play a lot of as well), but it would directly apply to SNG's or any tourny with fewer tables:

You can start stealing blinds from the very first hand dealt (done it! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]) not because you need the chips, since risk/reward ratio is definitely not there, but to get the other players accustomed to the sight of you doing it. It could be a double edged sword but what happens is you'll get some very loose action down the road from some who decide to take a stand when you DO have a good hand that dominates theirs. At that point, you can easily double up once or twice.

Any other thoughts on this? It's an interesting question, would be interesting to see what the rest of you think.

Kirk R.

[MLG]

While that is true, you are just as likely to have somebody take a stand with 6-6 when you have A-K, not what you want. Being aggressive early in tournaments is a viable strategy, but it is not for the faint of heart. The reason you will get chips is not by stealing the blinds, but by betting into the pot after you get called, even if you miss. Taking down a pot after you are called in a spot or two can really build your stack, but after getting check-raised once or twice when your bluffing that stack can go right back down rather quickly. This method in my opinion is better employed in live games where you can sense when your opponent(s) have hands.

[Kirkrrr]

MLG,

First off, I read your posts with a lot of interest and your insight is appreciated.

I couldn't help laughing when I read what you said since that is EXACTLY what happened to me last night:

Blinds are t100/200, 25 ante. I'm in the SB with KQo and about t2500. The average stack is around t4000 and I'm playing catchup. Anyway, 5 players limp in, I raise All-In, everyone folds around to the Button who, after a very long and hard hesitation, decides to call me with 33, which hold up very nicely. Oh well, live and learn.

To get back to the topic at hand, though, what you're saying makes perfect sense. On the other hand, however:

1) Stealing your way all the way into the money is an almost impossible task, and I think you'll agree with that.
2) Your chips come from loose calls (at the levels you play, you probably don't have as many people calling All-In raises with 34o, 33, or 44, but it does happen and it can be very profitable if you've got the right image)

So that's sort of my thinking on that one [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] However, I reserve the right to be wrong, and blame it on others when I am.

[MLG]

1. I like your play with KQ there over all those limpers. That call by the BB was horrible, it would be a horrible call if he was closing the action, and given that he wasn't it was spectacularly bad.

2. You can't steal your way into the money, you have to play some hands. You have to bluff and pick up sizable pots now and then. You make a lot of money off of loose calls. My point is that there is a line between being fearless at important junctures, and being wreckless with your chips. Walking that line is the tough part for all of us.

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
1) Stealing your way all the way into the money is an almost impossible task, and I think you'll agree with that.

2) Your chips come from loose calls (at the levels you play, you probably don't have as many people calling All-In raises with 34o, 33, or 44, but it does happen and it can be very profitable if you've got the right image)

[/ QUOTE ]

#1 is true.
But without doing #1, sometimes you don't have the chips to get in position to do #2.
(no bathromm jokes please [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])

regards,
woodguy

[Kirkrrr]

Wow wow wow, guys, hold on a sec here! I think this conversation has come around in an extremely weird way.
[ QUOTE ]
#1 is true.
But without doing #1, sometimes you don't have the chips to get in position to do #2.


[/ QUOTE ]

Woodguy, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. My point was that stealing small blinds in the beginning of the tourney when, technically speaking, it's not worth doing for the money is nevertheless a sound play from a longer-term tactical standpoint, as it sets up your image for later when you DO have good hands but people will put you on yet another steal attempt and give you some action. That was my argument.

BTW, I'm glad my KQo play recieved someone's nod of approval - I really wasn't too sure if it was the right move later on due to the number of limpers in the pot (not the end result).

Kirk R.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this may not be very relevant to the small buy-in MTTs you're talking about (and which I play a lot of as well), but it would directly apply to SNG's or any tourny with fewer tables:

You can start stealing blinds from the very first hand dealt (done it! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]) not because you need the chips, since risk/reward ratio is definitely not there, but to get the other players accustomed to the sight of you doing it. It could be a double edged sword but what happens is you'll get some very loose action down the road from some who decide to take a stand when you DO have a good hand that dominates theirs. At that point, you can easily double up once or twice.

Any other thoughts on this? It's an interesting question, would be interesting to see what the rest of you think.

Kirk R.

[/ QUOTE ]

I take the opposite view. You get bad hands a lot more often than you get good ones, so it's better to set up steals than to cultivate a loose image.

If it's folded to me in the SB early in a tournament, and I have a hand I don't want to play, I'll typically wait a few seconds before folding, just to call a little more attention to the fold. I may want to pick on that BB later, and I'm going to want him to give me credit for a big hand, so I'll make it obvious that I'm happy to fold when I don't have a real hand.

More often than not a table image is a reflection of the cards you're dealt anyway, rather than something you intentionally choose. The important thing is that you remain aware of what your image is, one way or another. If you get no cards for the first few rounds and you're not in a hand, you'll get a lot of respect when you suddenly come out firing with a raise - take advantage of this! Conversely, if the cards force you to raise a lot of hands preflop, your steals aren't going to get as much respect, unless you've been showing down all those big hands of course.