This is why you should raise preflop with Aces

faman · #1 07-12-2004, 09:59 AM

Man I hate party, it must be rigged because Aces are always getting cracked by garbage like 810s [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks,

Flop: (7 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, Button folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

River: (9.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, Hero raises, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 16.50 BB
Main Pot: 16.50 BB, between Hero, UTG+2 and MP1. > Pot won by Hero (16.50 BB).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows 8h Th (straight, jack high).
UTG+2 shows As Ah (two pair, aces and nines).
MP1 shows Ad Ac (two pair, aces and nines).
Outcome: Hero wins 16.50 BB.

Nottom · #2 07-12-2004, 10:04 AM

I think thats the first hand where I've seen 2 players butcher their rockets together, but it still doesn't make your flop call any better.

Bill Smith · #3 07-12-2004, 10:06 AM

Pretty thin flop call, wouldn't you say? You've got a weak overcard and a couple backdoor possibilities, but that's it.

faman · #4 07-12-2004, 10:20 AM

I was hoping some people would bring up the flop call, as I'm not 100% sure about it. I have 2 backdoor draws, which I've read can be counted as 1-2 outs each, so being generous I have 4 outs and need 11-1 odds to make the call.

I'm getting 9-1 on a flop call with 3 players to act behind me, and as the table was full of calling stations I figured there was a good chance that 1-2 of them would call. Add to that the implied odds when I do make my hand, and I think the call is reasonable (but again this is all assuming that I can count the 2 backdoor draws as 4 outs).

Is this a reasonable line of thinking, or am I just another Party calling station? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

chief444 · #5 07-12-2004, 10:27 AM

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I'm getting 9-1 on a flop call with 3 players to act behind me, and as the table was full of calling stations I figured there was a good chance that 1-2 of them would call.

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9:1 is not enough to call this. Also, having three players yet to act behind you is generally not a good thing to justify making a worse than marginal call as one of them may raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Add to that the implied odds when I do make my hand, and I think the call is reasonable (but again this is all assuming that I can count the 2 backdoor draws as 4 outs).

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Implied odds are not really your friend when chasing backdoor draws as you will usually end up putting in another BB or two on the turn when you do pick up a stronger draw only to miss on the river.

Sundevils21 · #6 07-12-2004, 10:30 AM

lets just say that the flop call was very borderline(as in, way too loose). If all the cards were played face up, the other two were very happy you decided to give action on the flop.

k000k · #7 07-12-2004, 10:36 AM

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(but again this is all assuming that I can count the 2 backdoor draws as 4 outs).

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You can't, I think a backdoor straight is 64:1 and a backdoor flush is 24:1. I can't give you any more than 2 outs for that, so we're talking at least 22:1 there....

bernie · #8 07-12-2004, 10:15 AM

Players will call a flop like this with crap, drawing even thinner than they were preflop?

If you're going to just call this flop, why wouldn't you coldcall a raise preflop?

If i had aces, i wouldn't mind that you won this hand.

b

bilbo-san · #9 07-12-2004, 10:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Players will call a flop like this with crap, drawing even thinner than they were preflop?

If you're going to just call this flop, why wouldn't you coldcall a raise preflop?

If i had aces, i wouldn't mind that you won this hand.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

But if either had played their Aces even remotely correctly, you wouldn't have. It should have costed 4 small bets to see the turn here. Unbelievable how passive Party is.

Hands like this is exactly why so many people get their AA hands whacked. Based on postflop action, neither player was playing deceptively, they're just insanely passive.

I love to play against players that will always let me see flops and turns this cheaply (but nevertheless I agree your flop call was very weak. Btw your calculation of pot odds neglects the case where you make your hand but lose to a full house, since the board was paired. You need a lot more than 9-1 to call here).

lu_hawk · #10 07-12-2004, 10:26 AM

You raise preflop because aces will win much more than the garbage hands that will call the raise and you want as much money in the pot as possible.

They played it horribly, but your flop call was very bad. Drawing to runner runner straights isn't going to make you a lot of money.