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#1
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Checking flop to protect hand on the turn
Villian is loose, VP$IP = 60+, not sure of aggression.
Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP2 :#A500AF(Villian)/ calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 :#A500AF(Villian)/ calls, MP3 calls. Flop: (14 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font> SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Villian checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks, Button checks. Turn: (7 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font> SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Villian bets</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>... I am checking this flop hoping for a safe turn card. Does that seem like a good play? I didn't expect anyone to raise behind me. How is that play? What if someone to my right had bet the flop? Raise? Still wait for turn? What type of pot odds do I want to be giving so many opponents here? Thanks. |
#2
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Re: Checking flop to protect hand on the turn
IF someone to your right bets, it might be a good idea to wait until the turn to raise, but I'm not even sure... So many cards are scary. A, K, Q, a heart, a 7, and there's so many people in the pot... I think you have to raise the flop if the bettor is close to your right (1-2 seats away).
However, if everyone checks to you, you HAVE to bet. Infinite odds is never good. At least give the other players a chance to fold their gutshots and their one overcard hands. |
#3
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Re: Checking flop to protect hand on the turn
You were the only PF raiser. You have no reason to suspect that you do not have the best hand here.
[ QUOTE ] if everyone checks to you, you HAVE to bet. Infinite odds is never good. At least give the other players a chance to fold their gutshots and their one overcard hands. [/ QUOTE ] This pot is so big it would be hard to protect your hand with a rise on the flop(I might still raise it if it came form a person 1 or 2 postions to my right because I was the PF raiser but this would depend on the table). I like the turn raise with the blank. |
#4
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Re: Checking flop to protect hand on the turn
Your play is correct...if you're holding 77 and the flop is 236. And even then it's a stretch. The fact is, you're the pre-flop raiser, you should be playing this flop aggressively no matter what happens. By checking the flop, you're giving the guy who called with 34s the opportunity to hit 2-pair on the turn, which is never a good thing. You need to make him pay to beat you - not just sit there and watch the cards hit him.
If someone to your right bets into you, I suggest raising, because there are a lot of cards (TQKA, and heart) which are pretty scary for you. You want to limit the field, not give all your opponents a free look at the turn. Alex |
#5
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Re: Checking flop to protect hand on the turn
[ QUOTE ]
Your play is correct...if you're holding 77 and the flop is 236. [/ QUOTE ] Why is it better to check here? I've been betting out in these spots too and I think I need to learn the distinction. I've in fact been more enthusiastic about betting with 77; since there's fewer friendly turn cards, I've been putting more pressure on the flop in an attempt to fold people. |
#6
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Re: Checking flop to protect hand on the turn
It's better to check there because everyone has the pot odds to call your flop bet due to the size of the pot on the flop. However, you're hoping a non-dangerous card comes on the turn, you can bet/raise and then people don't have the pot odds to call your turn bet. In this situation, people are mathematically correct to fold to your turn bet/raise since the pot is no longer laying the odds. If you were to bet the flop and the turn, there would be more money in the pot for people to have the odds to now call your turn bet. T |
#7
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Re: Checking flop to protect hand on the turn
[ QUOTE ]
It's better to check there because everyone has the pot odds to call your flop bet due to the size of the pot on the flop. However, you're hoping a non-dangerous card comes on the turn, you can bet/raise and then people don't have the pot odds to call your turn bet. [/ QUOTE ] But in the 77 situation there are fewer (if any) safe turn cards than with JJ. So even if they're getting decent odds, we need to give people the chance to fold as soon as possible. I'm thinking about the 'Two Overpair Hands' section in SSHE, where Ed advocates waiting until the turn to raise with AA but not TT (iirc?), partially due to the greater number of scary turn cards with TT. |
#8
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Re: Checking flop to protect hand on the turn
I didn't realize you were talking about the 77 hand in particular. I was generalizing the situation and not speaking of that particular case. In the 77 hand, I think you're correct that you need to bet out and hope overcards incorrectly bail. |
#9
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Re: Checking flop to protect hand on the turn
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] It's better to check there because everyone has the pot odds to call your flop bet due to the size of the pot on the flop. However, you're hoping a non-dangerous card comes on the turn, you can bet/raise and then people don't have the pot odds to call your turn bet. [/ QUOTE ] But in the 77 situation there are fewer (if any) safe turn cards than with JJ. So even if they're getting decent odds, we need to give people the chance to fold as soon as possible. I'm thinking about the 'Two Overpair Hands' section in SSHE, where Ed advocates waiting until the turn to raise with AA but not TT (iirc?), partially due to the greater number of scary turn cards with TT. [/ QUOTE ] You have the examples backwards. With AA you should raise immediately on the flop. With TT you should wait until the turn. With TT you are passing up a small edge on the flop to exploit a bigger edge on the turn. |
#10
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Re: Checking flop to protect hand on the turn
[ QUOTE ]
Why is it better to check here? I've been betting out in these spots too and I think I need to learn the distinction. I've in fact been more enthusiastic about betting with 77; since there's fewer friendly turn cards, I've been putting more pressure on the flop in an attempt to fold people. [/ QUOTE ] The reason it's better to often check in these situations is because, if someone DOES call your flop bet (which is very likely), there are no really good cards that could come on the turn. Ultimately, you're better off waiting until the turn to make sure that your baby pocket pair is okay. Alex |
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