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  #1  
Old 10-26-2005, 10:54 AM
sfer sfer is offline
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Default An old live hand

Playing live, 10 handed 10/20 with a couple of 2+2ers. bdk3clash raises UTG+1, three coldcalls, I call in the BB with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. 5 players, 10.25 SBs.

Flop is A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I check, Brad bets, first coldcaller continues, 1 fold, the button--a loose and generally passive player--raises, I think for a second and call, Brad calls, coldcaller calls.

4 players, 9 BBs. Turn is the 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I bet, Brad folds, coldcaller calls, button calls.

3 players, 12 BBs. River is the 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I check, coldcaller checks, button bets, I fold.
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  #2  
Old 10-26-2005, 10:58 AM
Paxosmotic Paxosmotic is offline
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Default Re: An old live hand

Trying to find something wrong with the hand but can't. How do you feel about a turn check/raise? A little of the ole semi-bluff in out action gov'na. Might get rid of cold caller if he has a stronger ace but not one he's particularly thrilled about, and might take down the pot enough to justify it.
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  #3  
Old 10-26-2005, 11:07 AM
Nick Royale Nick Royale is offline
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Default Re: An old live hand

[ QUOTE ]
Trying to find something wrong with the hand but can't. How do you feel about a turn check/raise? A little of the ole semi-bluff in out action gov'na. Might get rid of cold caller if he has a stronger ace but not one he's particularly thrilled about, and might take down the pot enough to justify it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Button only bets hands that beats sfer on this turn. He's either on a fd or holds a better A, a set or maybe two pairs. Check/raising against this range of hands against loose passive would be really bad, since we're giving him a freecard when we're ahead and are behind if we get the opportunity to check/raise. The turn bet is to prevent a freecard.

[ QUOTE ]
Trying to find something wrong with the hand but can't.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's funny how posters always praise the play of posters like sfer and cdc without knowing the reason behind. Not trying to be a jerk, I see it all the time.
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  #4  
Old 10-26-2005, 11:10 AM
Paxosmotic Paxosmotic is offline
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Default Re: An old live hand

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Trying to find something wrong with the hand but can't. How do you feel about a turn check/raise? A little of the ole semi-bluff in out action gov'na. Might get rid of cold caller if he has a stronger ace but not one he's particularly thrilled about, and might take down the pot enough to justify it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Button only bets hands that beats sfer on this turn. He's either on a fd or holds a better A, a set or maybe two pairs. Check/raising against this range of hands against loose passive would be really bad, since we're giving him a freecard when we're ahead and are behind if we get the opportunity to check/raise. The turn bet is to prevent a freecard.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know we're probably behind, but I wonder if the size of the pot along with our outs give us enough equity to check/raise. I think it's close either way.

jskills - We've got some backdoor outs to cover our odds on the flop call.
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  #5  
Old 10-26-2005, 11:14 AM
Nick Royale Nick Royale is offline
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Default Re: An old live hand

[ QUOTE ]
know we're probably behind, but I wonder if the size of the pot along with our outs give us enough equity to check/raise. I think it's close either way.

[/ QUOTE ]
The times we're not ahead we're drawing to 3 outs at most. I don't think it's close, he's loose and will probably call down with all hands that beats us and when he bets the turn he has us beat ~90% (I would probably estimate that it's even more than that).
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  #6  
Old 10-26-2005, 12:00 PM
suited aces suited aces is offline
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Default Re: An old live hand

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The times we're not ahead we're drawing to 3 outs at most. I don't think it's close, he's loose and will probably call down with all hands that beats us and when he bets the turn he has us beat ~90% (I would probably estimate that it's even more than that).

[/ QUOTE ]

You're ignoring that we picked up a gutshot on the turn to go along with our top pair/weak quicker. That said, I agree that the check-raise is ill-advised.


The way I read the hand, when the original poster picked up the gutshot on the turn, he donked representing a made straight. I think semi-bluffing into three other players in a relatively big pot is unlikely to work. Especially with the flush draw out there.


Still, given that this isn't likely to be checked around and that we probably have 7 outs if we're raised, we might as well bet if we're confident that the passive button won't raise on the expensive streets.


As to the river, having missed our outs, and given that our call doesn't close the action, I guess the fold is fine. Still, given the size of the pot and that the player behind us hasn't shown any aggression, I probably make a crying call.
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  #7  
Old 10-26-2005, 11:04 AM
jskills jskills is offline
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Default Re: An old live hand

Dumb question: What about folding the flop when it's 2 back to you. PF raiser could easily have a better A, but even if not, the raise from the loose passive has to indicate that at least one of them likely has a better A which has us drawing pretty thin, no?

If I'm off base here, can you explain your thoughts on calling the flop for 2?

Thx.
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  #8  
Old 10-26-2005, 03:41 PM
callmedonnie callmedonnie is offline
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Default Re: An old live hand

[ QUOTE ]
Dumb question: What about folding the flop when it's 2 back to you. PF raiser could easily have a better A, but even if not, the raise from the loose passive has to indicate that at least one of them likely has a better A which has us drawing pretty thin, no?

If I'm off base here, can you explain your thoughts on calling the flop for 2?

Thx.

[/ QUOTE ]

If all the eights in the deck are good, the backdoor flush, backdoor straight outs are giving you another 2.5 outs or so for a total of say 5. That is enough, but then again the action isn't guarenteed to be closed. close?
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  #9  
Old 10-26-2005, 11:09 AM
krimson krimson is offline
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Default Re: An old live hand

I'm totally lost on this one. Can you explain your thinking?

The flop call of 2 cold can be rougly explained by the fact that we may have the best hand, and have 3 outs if behind (don't feel like counting the pot right now). However, I don't understand the bet into the turn, and then c/f on the river. Given your read on the button I think he's calling this donk bet with hands we have beat. ie: smaller aces (which would be why he had to think hard about raising it on the flop). So why do we just give it up for 1 more bet on the river?
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  #10  
Old 10-26-2005, 11:25 AM
Nick Royale Nick Royale is offline
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Default Re: An old live hand

I'm not sure I'm correct, but I'll give you my analysis:

On the flop PFR will bet any ace hand and high PP. The loose/passive button will only raise with a better ace, fd, set or (less likely) 2-pair. 3-betting would not define our hand since button will still probably cap his fd 4-way in position plus we're not sure if PFR holds an ace in which case we'll be drawing to at most 3 outs. Sfer calls the flop and when pfr just call we can put him on a high PP (probably with a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]). On the turn we're pretty sure to be ahead of pfr and sometimes we're ahead of button too (when he holds the fd). Sfer bets to prevent a freecard and will be able to fold to a raise drawing to 0-3 outs. When the [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] falls on the river and button bets he's either on the flush, a better ace or set/2-pair.
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