What do you need to hold to call with here???

[WalleyeJason]

Ok I found myself in this situation last night, Just want to know what all think.


No-limit HE

We just moved to the final Table of 9 They pay 5 spots.

Chip stacks are pretty even; with one exception a player at the table has 4x
the average stack. People seem to be waiting for someone else to bust to get closer to
the money.


The average stack is about T2200 I have T2400

The blinds are 200-400 and I am in MP


I look down and see AA

2 players before me limp in and I raise to 800.(the chip leader folded)

I get 3 callers including the BB

The flop comes 8 5 K two clubs.

Its checked to me, and I go all in.


Tell me what cards you need to have to call?


Any insight to this would be helpful.

[crockpot]

the way you played this hand, i would be inclined to put you on AK and call if i could beat that. coincidentally all the hands that can beat that can beat AA too, unless your opponent has AK also and calls expecting to split.

i would have been inclined to raise more preflop, but that's just me.

i'm just guessing you got bounced on this hand. post these in the tournaments forum for better responses.

[WalleyeJason]

crocksucker,

How much larger of a bet would you have made pre-flop? And Why?

I'll admit, I'm still learning No-limit and any situational experinces that I can learn from will help my game improve.

In this situation, I raised 800, 1/3 of my stack this left me with T1600, I was hoping to get somebody to come over the top with AK or a pocket pair.

This is just what I was thinking at the time.

WJ

[Zag]

Sorry. I just read the reply that I made and it sounds a little harsh. I didn't mean to come down on you quite that heavily. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[WalleyeJason]

No offense taken...

Just happy that I can get some insightful toughts that make good logical sense.

WJ

[crockpot]

here's my analysis:

if someone has AK or a pocket pair, they are considerably more likely to call an all-in rather than make it themselves when it has already been raised (even though this is incorrect tournament strategy).

if one of the limpers has a pocket pair, your raise does not deny him the implied odds to call your raise and hope to flop a set and bust you, so you would rather that he fold to a big raise than call a small one.

there is 1400 in the pot already. here, even with aces, i don't believe there is a correct size to raise except all-in. if someone calls, great, you are a huge favorite and got some dead money in the pot. if not, you just added over 50% to your stack with zero risk. in a tournament, winning pots without having to show down the best hand is the key strategy.

in order to completely analyze the situation i would need the stack sizes of the limpers and blinds. these may seem like small details but they are always important.

by the way, these blinds are way too high for this stage of the tourney. with these stack sizes, blinds of 75/150 or 100/200 might be more reasonable, in which case a smaller raise would enter consideration. when the average player has to pay one fifth of his stack to even limp, you should push in with any hand that you believe is good.

[Paul2432]

An addtional benefit to going all-in with AA in this situation is that it protects you when you go all-in with a lesser hand in the future. If your opponents know that when you go all-in pre-flop that you do not have AA that puts you at a big disadvantage.

BTW, getting 3:1 odds with two cards to come your opponent had an easy call with the nut flush draw plus and overcard (even though the overcard was not good). He is probably no more than about a 2:1 dog.

Paul

[CCass]

If I were playing against you in this situation, I would call your all-in with any set, but I might not have called the pre-flop bet with pocket 5's (depends on my table position). I would probably also call with AK. I might also call with 7c6c, but playing this hand pre-flop again depends on table position.

You didn't give any information on the other players, but my guess is that if someone called you, you are probably facing a set, with a slight possibility of someone calling with AK or 7c6c.

Just my $.02 worth.


CCass

[Zag]

First off, you didn't raise nearly enough preflop. You currently have a little more than an average stack -- adding the blinds (and the limpers' money, which I noticed later) would put you in great shape. The last thing you want is 3 callers drawing at you.

The pot is 1400 when it gets to you, so you might as well just push it in. I had originally typed, here, that you should raise to 1400, which would tempt a hand like JJ or AQ to reraise you, but that was when I thought it was just the blinds in the pot. When I reread your note, I realized that there were two limpers already. With the limpers, just push it in. Don't give them cheap odds to pick up a two pair that you can't possibly see.

Anyway, given that you only bet 800 and got your callers, I think that you have to push in, here, once they checked to you. If you check, then you are left with a tough decision if someone else pushes in.

I assume, because of the question in your title, that some idiot called you with 56 and spiked a 6 on the river, or some such. But the real lesson for you is to stop blaming your opponents for playing badly and getting lucky. Start blaming yourself for letting them draw at you cheaply. This hand never should have reached the flop.

[WalleyeJason]

Zag,

I hear what your saying, and realize that by pushing in pre-flop wins me a nice little pot if no body holds a hand worth going all in pre-flop

I'm just thinking out loud, but lets talk about what hands could call my All-in pre-flop that you suggest.

I would think pre-flop, that I would call the all in with AA, KK reguardless of my read on the all in.

AK or QQ If I had good knowlege of how my opponent plays and if maybe I could spot somthing that could tip me off.

JJ-TT I dont want to Exit the tournament with these hands.

What do you think?

WJ