Quick question on this 5/5 hand...

[coltrane]

Live 5/5 ten-handed....I have ~$1000 and cover everyone in the hand.....

I limp in MP with A5s.....3 more limpers, blinds check, we see the flop 6-handed ($30 in pot).....

I flop the nut flush.....good player (~$900) in SB leads for $35, BB folds, action is on me and all three of the players left to act behind me are bad.....

call or raise here?....

[TomCollins]

Call.

[Wheezl]

IMO, Raising the nut flush in that spot will only shut out players you really want putting money in the pot. If the guy leading has also flopped a flush you will be more likely to bleed him for more money on the turn if he decides you or any of the other potential callers are drawing to the lone Ace and decides to lead the turn hard to charge the "draws". Also the larger the pot gets from overcalls the more likely you will be to get larger crying calls from a smaller flush later in the hand once you finally wake up. I think calling the flop, and then waking up on the turn (depending on flop action and turn card obviously) is the best way to proceed.

[TomCollins]

The only way you are making any money off this pot is if one of two things happen.

1) The guy has a flush and thinks you are drawing to one.

2) Someone else hits a flush with a K, and calls a decent bet.

Raising will kill both of those lines.

[amoeba]

at first I thought about raising as you don't want the turn to pair but as I thought about it again, I realize that any set, 2 pair will probably call your raise anyways unless if you really overraise the flop.

Therefore I think call is better. but definitely get your money in on a non paired turn.

[Kaz The Original]

I used to think raising with TPTK on 2 flush flops was a good idea until I realized any flush draw would call my bet.

Therefor just call on the flop but get your money in on any non flush turn.


My point is, raise the flop, Small flush will probably reraise, a set could very well reraise, and you get your money in when you know you're a favourite.

Plus, you want to be able to steal from time to time, and raising the nuts helps that.

[WorldBeater]

Raise. Not even close decision IMO.

[Wheezl]

can you explain why?

[WorldBeater]

[ QUOTE ]
can you explain why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Because if there is another big hand already out, you might get unlimited action from that hand by raising now. By only calling the flop bet, a scare card could hit or a card that beats your hand could hit on the next street.

There's a good chance that the next card could be a scare card for your hand or the opponents hand. You might get lucky, and someone might do the work for you by raising the pot. But then again that might not happen, and you will be left with the scenario below:
Your hand is vulnerable on the next card to be beaten or lose its flush value if:
A. the board pairs
B. another card of your suit hits (with only one card needed to complete the flush, your not nearly as likely to get action on your flush)

A quick estimate of how many times the board will pair, or another of your suit will hit on the turn, on average:
I look back at the original post and notice that the exact cards that flopped are not given. I will make a hypothetical flop to Ad 5d:

Flop: 7D 9D 3D.
There are 8 diamonds that could hit on the turn.
3 sevens, 3 nines, and 3 threes.
That's a total of 17 cards on the turn that will either pair the board or put out a four flush.
17 out of the 47 unseen cards in the deck = about 36% of the time.

Scenario 1 - It's possible another guy is in there slow playing the six high flush. What happens if a diamond hits on the turn? You are not likely to make much off your flush, is what will happen.

Scenario 2 - Here's an even worse scenario. The guy who led at the pot in this hand has a set, or 2 pair. The board pairs on the turn, giving him a full house. You have some serious guessing to do if you are faced with some big bets, depending on who is doing the betting.

Scenario 3 - You call the original flop bet. It is raised behind you and there are several callers, or just one caller. Then you make a big reraise. The question I have is the value of your smooth call in this situation. You could have raised the original bettor, and then been reraised by another in the hand, had you initiated the raising yourself. It's possible someone will do the work for you and bet your hand. If you are in a pot with habitual bluffers, then slow playing the hand may be a legitimate alternative.

I don't generally think its good poker to slow play monster hands that are vulnerable to scarecards / and being beaten by bigger hands. I have outlined several reasons why I think that is true.

[etizzle]

thats all fine and dandy, but this is a call and its not close.

Position relative to the bettor, and the fact that its very unlikely that anyone has 2 pair (only a set has outs) make this into a slowplay.

More than 50% of the time everyone is drawing dead here.