Loose passive games - call or raise?

[Mano]

I often find myself in loose passive games in middle to late position with good, but not great starting hands and often question weather it is better to just limp along after several others have already limped and see what to do on the flop, or raise what may likely be the best hand. I was hoping some of you could comment on some of how you would play the following hands in middle or late position, assuming at least 2 or 3 limpers already in and loose passive blinds:

1) AJ s/o
2) AQ s/o
3) KQ s/o
4) medium pp (8-J)
5) small pp (2-7)
5) KJ s/o

If any of you would care to comment on any of these starting hands I would be interested in how you would play them. Thanks.

[Pot-A]

I usually categorize these games more than "loose passive". The question is - how apt are your opponents to lay down a bad hand on the flop?

If I'm in a game where people take any two cards to the flop but then are willing to lay down hands that don't flop well, I tend to play more aggressively pre-flop. I'll raise all the suited hands you list, as well as the pocket pairs if I think I'll have at least 5 callers. The off-suit hands are more problematic. If I don't think I can drive anybody out I'll save that extra bet until I see the flop.

The second type of game is characterized by opponents who call to the flop and then keep calling with gut-shots and medium pairs. This is the most profitable game you can find.

Recall that they're making less of a mistake mathmatically if they make a loose call when the pot is large. Since I want my opponents to make big mistakes, I don't want a giant pot when I have top pair with best kicker. In this type of game I wouldn't raise with any of the hands you've listed. Even the big suited hands that play well in large pots don't hit the flop very often. Save your agression for post-flop when you hit, since you need a reasonably strong hand to survive to the river. The value you receive from this type of game is the money you make after the flop when your opponents are drawing slim or dead and don't realize it.

Of course, you always raise with a really strong hand like AA, since it wins often enough to be profitable even if everyone calls.

[SoBeDude]

You bring up an excellent distinction in game descriptions.

My regular game has loose preflop conditions where 4-6 people regularly see the flop.

A preflop raise from early/UTG will push out most players, but the limpers will all call a second bet if the raise comes from late position.

They ignore pot odds with a four-flush or open-ended straight draw and will call you down to the river.

Also, they tend to be callers unless they have a made hand. And they also love to sandbag when they do have it. It is very tough to put most of them on a hand.

Suggestions how to play this table?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

[sucka]

Sounds like you do have alot of 'chasers' in your game. When/where do you guys play? Have an extra seat? [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

This has been an interesting thread - it solidfied some thoughts for me and made me double think a few others...

Here's my general idea of how you might want to play in this game - which btw, is similar to many LL B&M games that I play in.

If an early pre-flop raise will limit the field then do so with your big pairs, unsuited big cards (AK, AQ, KQ, etc..). You want to push out some players behind you and get a shorthanded pot going where your top pair good kicker will hold up for you - that's what you are shooting for here. AKo is a great hand - shorthanded or in a family pot - but you are going to win with it more when you have less players. Raise it up and try to get it that way.

If the pots are generally unraised pre-flop you can limp alot more with hands like Axs, Kxs and often times Qxs from nearly any position. Occasionally you'll get an early or middle position raiser that will clear the table and you'll be 2 or 3 handed with a holding that prefers as many in as possible - but that's how it goes. When you can sneak in to these multi-way pots with hands that can make monsters in the loose passive games you have to do so.

In late position, follow the advice given in a few of the above posts. When you hold big suited connectors those hands can play well in large or small pots - so you often want to raise those up regardless of how many people are playing. I often times will raise hands like QJs and JTs when there is a family or near-family pot going when im late. I have position and have a hand that loves a ton of action. I look at it as though I'm putting in one extra small bet to get 5,6,7 or however many back should I spike a hand. It's a small investment for a possible large return. If you miss completely here and the flop is getting a ton of action - ie; 2 or 3 bets to you, then you cut your losses and wait for the next opportunity.

Also, if you game is really loose-passive preflop you can start limping with 1 or 2 gapper suited connectors (T9s, QTs, J9s, etc...) as these hands can make potential monsters as well.

Of course you have to continue to effectively check-raise and semi-bluff here - especially in situations on the flop and turn where you can use these (with position) to get more bets into the pot or clear the field by making other players call 2 or 3 bets cold.

I rarely see LL players effectively check raise. Almost every time someone checkraises at a LL table someone says something like, "Ah, trying to get a free card huh?" The strategic check-raise and semi-bluff raise are your friends - use them. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Just for the record - I have nary to find a LL player who will EVER laydown 4 flush or 4 to an open ender - even if it's not to the nuts and there is a ton of action. They just can't stand to do it. You'll get hammered a few times - but punish these players when they are drawing out on you with trash. If you have a made hand on the flop - like top pair or 2 pair - these flush and straight draw folks are looking at 4-1 and 5-1 dogs to complete their hand against you. Make them pay.

I'm sure that others will elaborate but basically, your game is a good one to be in. Do you have "Hold Em Poker for Advanced Players"? or any other Sklansky/Malmuth poker books? If not, I strongly suggest that you at least get the above mentioned one and read, re-read and then read it again.

[tewall]

Very nice post. A couple of comments.

The comment is that one reason not to raise is to keep the pot size small to maximize the mistakes chasers make on the flop and onwards. One the other hand, it makes sense to get more money in when you have the best of it. So you're sacrificing in making a small mistake early to capitalize on larger mistakes later.

Your point about raising with a hand like JTs late is well taken. You could also raise in MP and most like get many callers, especially if there's been several limpers in before you, but the hand will be more difficult to play than in late position. The drawing hands become more playable in late position not just because you have a better idea of how many opponents will be playing but because they are easier to play.

Regarding the flush you write (paraphrasing) " a lot of these people will never lay down a 4 flush, even if it's not to the nuts and there's a lot of action." It's hard to see laying down a 4 flush, unless the board is paired. The fact that it's not to the nuts doesn't matter. A flush losing to another flush is too rare to worry about and the action can be coming from many types of hands other than higher flush draws.

[sucka]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
it makes sense to get more money in when you have the best of it. So you're sacrificing in making a small mistake early to capitalize on larger mistakes later

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I know that I am going to outplay most of my opponents post-flop and thus, this is usually an easy decision for me to make (to raise here). I know what hands I'm trying to hit and I'm not going to chase a born loser just because the pot got big - by my own doing.

Sure, a big pot pre-flop minimizes the number of mistakes that the other (bad) players will make - however, while their mistake may not be mathematically incorrect it's still incorrect and the investment here, IMHO, outweighs the return as most of these players will call regardless of the pot size. So, might as well raise it up! [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
A flush losing to another flush is too rare to worry about and the action can be coming from many types of hands other than higher flush draws

[/ QUOTE ]

True...true... Just making a point. I tried to remember the last time I laid an open ender or 4 flush down on the flop and can't seem to remember. [img]/forums/images/icons/blush.gif[/img]

Tis' true that flush over flush occurs so rarely that you cant scare yourself out of it - but it's always funny to me how many players will call 3 bets with a baby flush. It normally doesn't take long, btw, to figure out who the "But they were sooted!!" players are. When the 3 to a flush comes - get ready...

[Pot-A]

My regular game has loose preflop conditions where 4-6 people regularly see the flop.

Pretty normal in my neck of the woods.

A preflop raise from early/UTG will push out most players, but the limpers will all call a second bet if the raise comes from late position.

OK, so in this case you want to raise from early position with big cards but just call from late position. And make sure you check-raise the flop (if possible) when you hit so all those pesky chasers pay full price.

They ignore pot odds with a four-flush or open-ended straight draw and will call you down to the river.

Ahhhh, what a wonderfull game. All you really need to do is get out your calculator and figure out whether you should check/call, bet/raise, or fold. Make sure you bet, bet, bet, when you have a nice flop.

Oh, and never, ever, bluff. What would be the point? In all that chasing somebody's likely to have caught a pair or two, so they'll call you.

Also, they tend to be callers unless they have a made hand. And they also love to sandbag when they do have it. It is very tough to put most of them on a hand.

What you have to figure out here is whether or not they fold on the river when they don't make a hand. The more likely it is they'll call your value bet on the river with a weak hand, the more you should bet for value. If they tend to fold on the river when they don't have anything, you need to have a stronger hand than normal to bet the river.

I don't worry too much about sandbaggers. When I used to play the small games I noticed most people do it too often, so they give you a chance to redraw cheaply.

As far as putting people on a hand... well, that's common in the lower limits. Not just because they slow-play too much, but also because they often bet or raise when it's obvious somebody else has a better hand. And they tend to bluff too much. I've played in games where I pretty much ignored everyone else's action and made "this is a good hand so I'll call" decisions.

[SoBeDude]

Hi Pot-A and thanks for your great response. Let me ask a few questions though:

A preflop raise from early/UTG will push out most players, but the limpers will all call a second bet if the raise comes from late position.

OK, so in this case you want to raise from early position with big cards but just call from late position. And make sure you check-raise the flop (if possible) when you hit so all those pesky chasers pay full price.

Why would I not want to raise from late to get maximum value from my big cards? If I raise and get 5 callers I'm getting 5:1 on my preflop money if I hit a hand.

I find I make no money with my big hands when I raise and get one caller, on the flop I bet and they fold or call one bet then fold the turn. but if they stay in they'll just call so its still not a big pot but I lose a fair number of those. so I lose multiple bets when I raise pre-flop from early and lose, but only win a few, maybe 2-3 bets when I win.

Ahhhh, what a wonderfull game. All you really need to do is get out your calculator and figure out whether you should check/call, bet/raise, or fold. Make sure you bet, bet, bet, when you have a nice flop.

I'd love to see the rules for my calculator telling when to bet/call/raise/etc. please tell me what to read. I've read HEPFAP and its not that cut and dry.

Good point on the river card. I had to really think it through but it makes sense. They won't call if they missed a draw, but will call with hands even if marginal.

One thing I need to learn to do is lay down a good hand when I get check-raised on the turn-river. I'm beat 90% of the time that happens. the other 10% I just have a better hand, its never a bluff on their part.

Thanks again for your input!

-Scott

[sucka]

You can raise from late position with your big cards - and in fact, I encourage you to do so in many cases. LP raises in an already multi-way pot are simply to get a big fat pot for you. You most likely have the best of it, so get some money in there and see how things go. I think what he was trying to say is that with many limpers in already a LP raise from you will simply tie the 'chasers' to the pot. This isn't such a horrible thing - especially if you spike a hand. However, it's much more difficult to check-raise, or semi-bluff anyone out of the pot if you 'sort of' hit and your overall chances at the pot decrease in these types of situations.

For example:

You get 5 or 6 limpers behind you and you are in LP with KQo. Raising here isn't going to get anyone to fold as they are already in for 1 bet and I guarantee everyone will call one more. You probably have the best hand - but could be up against a pocket pair or two and perhaps an Ax. Not raising here allows you to trap players if you flop a a great draw or a monster hand like top 2 pair for additional bets as you don't give your hand away by raising pre-flop. The flop may also give you the opportunity to semi-bluff a hand that makes you a 3 flush with 2 overcards for example. In an unraised multi-way pot in LP you might be able to raise a MP or LP bettor and thin the field out a little and get it heads up or even win the pot right there. In short, in this smaller pot you make it more incorrect for players to cold-call your 2 bets than if it you had doubled the pot size preflop with a raise.

If you had raised pre-flop you are going to have a much more difficult time doing anything other than making a winning hand to take the pot. Anyone with any type of draw from bottom pair with an overcard to 3 to a big flush with overcards, etc... is going to stay in to draw against you as the pot has become to big for them to fold.

Of course, you'll always have the players who won't fold regardless of the size of the pot - against them you simply have to show down the best hand (or at least a better hand then what they have) to take the pot.

So, basically whether or not you choose to raise it up from LP is entirely up to you. There are arguments for both options and both are valid. In fact, in HEPFAP there is a section on playing in loose games that describes this exact dilemma.

[Pot-A]

Why would I not want to raise from late to get maximum value from my big cards? If I raise and get 5 callers I'm getting 5:1 on my preflop money if I hit a hand.

sucka's comment is on the mark. Raise from late position if you don't have a bunch of limpers who will certainly call you. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear. If you have limpers, just call.

It is true you're getting 5:1 with five callers. However, consider this: How often to you hit the flop? Lets say you had AQo, and the flop was something like Ts 9s 2c. Heads up this might be a betting or calling situation, since one opponent is likely to have whiffed as well, but against five people your odds of winning this pot are small. You're only loosing half as much if you just chuck it on the flop, even though you have some outs.

This is the key: The point of the raise pre-flop for a hand like AQo isn't to get more money from the people who call, it is to increase the chance you will win the pot by reducing the number of callers. You need to have a really strong hand like AA to start thinking about getting good odds on your pre-flop money.

I find I make no money with my big hands when I raise and get one caller, on the flop I bet and they fold or call one bet then fold the turn. but if they stay in they'll just call so its still not a big pot but I lose a fair number of those. so I lose multiple bets when I raise pre-flop from early and lose, but only win a few, maybe 2-3 bets when I win.

If you raise and you only get one caller, it's not a loose game after all. Start raising with a wider range of hands.

I'd love to see the rules for my calculator telling when to bet/call/raise/etc. please tell me what to read. I've read HEPFAP and its not that cut and dry.

No? Read it again, especially the section on pot odds. If your opponents are just going to call to the end with draws you want to bet your made hands. Whether you call or even bet with a draw is dictated by the size of the pot. If you get raised you have to start thinking about what the raiser could have. If people are raising a lot with marginal hands, it's not a passive game.

Good point on the river card. I had to really think it through but it makes sense. They won't call if they missed a draw, but will call with hands even if marginal.

If they call with marginal hands you're going to have to make some value bets. You'll get raised every once in awhile, but it'll still end up being more profitable if you consider your opponents carefully.

One thing I need to learn to do is lay down a good hand when I get check-raised on the turn-river. I'm beat 90% of the time that happens. the other 10% I just have a better hand, its never a bluff on their part.

Be very carefull adopting this strategy. In general, these type of games generate very large pots relative to the size of the bet, so it is still correct to call if you have outs or they might be bluffing.

So take into account how strong your hand is and how many other players are still in before you decide to fold. Most hands that were worth a bet are worth a call in this situation. Also, if you start folding every time they raise, even the weakest players will start to become tricky.